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Subject: Ork Spores - factory or no factory? rss

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David Thiel
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Yes, I know that there's a discussion of this further down, but it didn't appear to have reached consensus.

Last night, I attempted to use my Ork Spores special ability to place a unit in a system without a factory. My opponent--who is listed in the rulebook as a playtester--said that during the testing process it had been ruled that a factory needed to be present.

My counterargument is that this appears to contradict the source material. 40K Orks reproduce via spores, no mechanical intervention required. (Granted that a lot of the Ork units are not entirely biological.) It strikes me that the intention was to allow an Ork unit to pop up somewhere unexpected.

Furthermore, the Ork Spores special ability seems weak if all it does is allow you to take a partial Deploy action without spending an Order token.

Have we heard anything official on this yet?
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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The description of Factory in the rules reference says that it allows you to purchase units when resolving a Deploy order. I think if you have another effect that allows the purchasing of units, that doesn't require a factory unless it says that it does.
 
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Matthias Flierl
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Actually RRG p. 6 states:

Purchase Units
: If the active player has a factory in the
active system, he may purchase units and place them on any
friendly or uncontrolled areas in that system.


Therefore purchasing is always linked to the existence of a factory.

Thus, Ork Spores need a factory.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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But that is describing the first step of resolving a Deploy Order. In this case there is no deploy order.
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J Kaemmer
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Page 6 is for the DEPLOY order. Spores is a DOMINATE ORDER. Nowhere does it say factories are required to purchase units except in reference to the deploy order. Check under factories. It says they are need to purchase units with a deploy order. Not "to purchase units you need a factory." It seems pretty clear spores works without a factory.
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Matthias Flierl
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Well, p. 10 RRG states "Purchasing Units and Structures". --> See "Deploy Order" p. 6.

The "Deploy Order" descrption on p. 6 states as first step: Purchasing Units. There it explicitly states that you need a factory in the active system to purchase units.

Although the Purchase paragraph is part of the deploy order sequence, it provides the only definition of "Purchasing" in the rulebooks.


From play experience I must say, that allowing Ork Spores without factories often resulted in the Ork player to fire off a Dominate order significantly more often than other players and the ork player rarely built additonal factories.

From this I would support the interpretation that Ork Spores need factories to be balanced to the other faction abilities.
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J Kaemmer
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Purchase is a pretty common word, but I hear what you are saying. I would say the balancing factor is that they can only build ONE unit with spores. Nowhere near enough to keep yourself in good shape. It helps but isn't game-breaking. No more so than upgrades and free moves.

I would still play no Factory needed. You dominate and then spend materiel to buy a single unit at cost. Purchase means to exchange something of value (materiel) for something (units) I feel we don't need a formal definition for that.
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Juan Mejia
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In the form of balance, marines can break the rules by ignoring the command level needed, Eldar can fling dudes across the galaxy and chaos can ignore sector boundaries and warp storms to place a guy. But you're saying an ability called ork spores follows all rules exactly just slightly out of order? That would make it one of the worst in the game since orks can't build double buildings with an order upgrade and their void movement is not as strong as a lot of other races
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Alex B
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Additionally, the Chaos deploy order upgrade "Dread Ritual" explicitly allows purchasing a unit without a factory, and it makes no reference to this on the order upgrade card itself. This implies that the action of "purchasing" isn't restricted to systems with factories.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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It helps to think of it this way...
You aren't forbidden from purchasing units without a factory. Rather, the factory gives you the ability to purchase units during a Deploy order. That same ability to purchase units can be granted by other effects as well.
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Tim Collins
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I am on the 'doesn't need a factory.' side of the fence on this one as it makes sense thematically and the fact that its not a deploy related ability.
 
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Tobin Lopes
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fliermt wrote:
Actually RRG p. 6 states:

Purchase Units
: If the active player has a factory in the
active system, he may purchase units and place them on any
friendly or uncontrolled areas in that system.


Therefore purchasing is always linked to the existence of a factory.

Thus, Ork Spores need a factory.


Although I've played three games where no factory was required after reading the thread, and more importantly reviewing the cards and rules, I think a factory is required. I'll explain why.

The Ork ability is to "purchase" and that, as fliermt pointed out, has a specific meaning. Looking at other cards that have a player put something into play they typically use the verb "place." If the Ork ability were meant to bypass the factory requirement it would probably say something like:

"You may place a unit into play in the active system by paying it's materiel and forge token cost, if any."

So, while I started on one side of this I've ended on the other side: that a factory is indeed required in the active system in order to trigger the Orks' special ability.

I now release you to play again. And again. And again.

-tpl
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Well, in all other cases where you place a unit, you are either getting it for free (there is a whole section in the RRG about Free Units) or it is just being taken from some other area on the board. I think they used the word purchase because it is subject to all of the same rules as purchasing - you have to have sufficient command level and you have to spend resources. You also could use forge and cache tokens on the purchase.

As far as I can tell, nothing outside of the Deploy Order section says that you need a factory to purchase units.
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Juan Mejia
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tobinlopes wrote:
fliermt wrote:
Actually RRG p. 6 states:

Purgase Units
: If the active player has a factory in the
active system, he may purchase units and place them on any
friendly or uncontrolled areas in that system.


Therefore purchasing is always linked to the existence of a factory.

Thus, Ork Spores need a factory.


Although I've played three games where no factory was required after reading the thread, and more importantly reviewing the cards and rules, I think a factory is required. I'll explain why.

The Ork ability is to "purchase" and that, as fliermt pointed out, has a specific meaning. Looking at other cards that have a player put something into play they typically use the verb "place." If the Ork ability were meant to bypass the factory requirement it would probably say something like:

"You may place a unit into play in the active system by paying it's materiel and forge token cost, if any."

So, while I started on one side of this I've ended on the other side: that a factory is indeed required in the active system in order to trigger the Orks' special ability.

I now release you to play again. And again. And again.

-tpl

I'd argue the opposite because the card isn't that specific. There is to my memory no header in the reference guide for purchasing, so it is not a keyword for a mechanism involving a factory. It just means you have to pay for it. All the ability says is that you may purchase(pay the material cost for) an Ork unit in the active sector. FFG must have playtested this extensively, if they meant for it to be the other way it would have specified that you do so on a sector with a factory.
Again my main argument would be how terrible the ork ability would be compared to the other ones that outright break the rules.
 
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Tobin Lopes
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Triceranuke wrote:

... if they meant for it to be the other way it would have specified that you do so on a sector with a factory.
Again my main argument would be how terrible the ork ability would be compared to the other ones that outright break the rules.


As the RRG states purchasing is a mechanic that requires a factory so to specify that a purchase requires a factory would be redundant. FFG has made a concerted effort to streamline the rules for all its games.

If we assume that what FFG learns in one game is applied to others then my experience with Warhammer: Conquest - perhaps the most literal game in recent memory - says that Forbidden Stars' "purchase" has a very narrow and specific definition - which requires a factory.

"Placing", "Gaining", and "Putting into play" have specific meanings as well. Since the Ork ability uses "purchase" then, based on my experience, I think an factory is needed. But that's just me.

The Ork ability under these limitations is still good. You essentially have access to four deploy orders each turn - with two of them generating the resources (especially if you get a cache token) you need to get more units.



-tpl
 
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Mike
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The Orks pop up and come out of the woodwork like crazy in the Warhammer universe. So, think about the intent of the designers trying to mimic the flavor of the Orks.

They don't need a factory.
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David Thiel
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Triceranuke wrote:
FFG must have playtested this extensively, if they meant for it to be the other way it would have specified that you do so on a sector with a factory.
Again my main argument would be how terrible the ork ability would be compared to the other ones that outright break the rules.


FWIW, the person I played this with was one of the playtesters. He says that the question came up, and that it was ruled that a factory was required. I have no reason to doubt his word.

And yet...it just seems wrong to me. It doesn't fit the theme, and as special abilities go, it's inconsequential.
 
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Juan Mejia
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tobinlopes wrote:


The Ork ability under these limitations is still good. You essentially have access to four deploy orders each turn - with two of them generating the resources (especially if you get a cache token) you need to get more units.



-tpl

Except it doesn't. The special ability as you're interpreting it would make the orks have a prerequisite for using dominate that none of the other races have. Each of them can dominate on turn one to get resources from different sectors and their ability but the orks would just be wasted in two sectors as you only get one factory. You can build one but that's just more stuff the ork player has to do to have their ability benefit them as much as the others. Even later in the game the only real benefit is to get the assets which every other race gets anyway. Why waste a whole order to produce one guy when I can do two deploy and get up to eight?
I mean sure I can do it the get up to nine or ten but I only have 4 orders and I can do better with them. I might as well deploy with work fasta and just build as many as I can in the sector since I need a factory there any way.

edit: the orks even get an order upgrade that lets them use strategize to deploy, completely negating the use of their special if it requires a factory.
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Juan Mejia
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dodonna wrote:
Triceranuke wrote:
FFG must have playtested this extensively, if they meant for it to be the other way it would have specified that you do so on a sector with a factory.
Again my main argument would be how terrible the ork ability would be compared to the other ones that outright break the rules.


FWIW, the person I played this with was one of the playtesters. He says that the question came up, and that it was ruled that a factory was required. I have no reason to doubt his word.

And yet...it just seems wrong to me. It doesn't fit the theme, and as special abilities go, it's inconsequential.

I'm wondering how official that ruling was though, until ffg tells me otherwise I'm playing as if you don't need one.
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Kris Adamson
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The Golden Rules
If the rules text on a card or faction sheet contradicts information from the Rules Reference, the rules on the card or sheet takes precedence. It is a special ability of the orks that takes precedence over the requirement of having a factory to purchase a unit in that system. I hope this answers the question.
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Juan Mejia
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Looking through the cards I think the best example for how to treat this is seen in the chaos upgrade card dread ritual.
That card text for that card reads: after resolving this order you may purchase 1 unit of command level 2 or less, reducing its materiel cost by 1 for each cultist in the active system.

In the card clarification section of the reference book, it says the following: dread ritual- there does not need to be a factory in the active system to purchase the unit.
Ergo, if a card or ability tells you to purchase a unit it is not saying you need to follow the rules for the deployment order, it just means you need the correct level of cities, you have to pay for it, and you can use assets.
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Matthias Flierl
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Triceranuke wrote:
Looking through the cards I think the best example for how to treat this is seen in the chaos upgrade card dread ritual.
That card text for that card reads: after resolving this order you may purchase 1 unit of command level 2 or less, reducing its materiel cost by 1 for each cultist in the active system.

In the card clarification section of the reference book, it says the following: dread ritual- there does not need to be a factory in the active system to purchase the unit.
Ergo, if a card or ability tells you to purchase a unit it is not saying you need to follow the rules for the deployment order, it just means you need the correct level of cities, you have to pay for it, and you can use assets.


This is a good analogy. I would buy that. They should have clarified that for Ork Spores as well or stating in the RRG for Purchasing Units, that it is just the process of meeting Command Level requirements and paying the materiel (and Forge tokens). Factories are only required for the basic deploy order.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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The RRG says something like "If you have a factory, you can purchase units". This is not equivalent to saying "If you don't have a factory, you can't purchase units."

The factory requirement is only mentioned under the Deploy Order section. It isn't given as a general rule.

Also, if you read the section for Factories, it specifically says that the factory allows you to purchase during a Deploy Order. This implies that, if there are ways to purchase outside of a Deploy, there is no requirement to have a factory.
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Tobin Lopes
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dodonna wrote:
Yes, I know that there's a discussion of this further down, but it didn't appear to have reached consensus.

Last night, I attempted to use my Ork Spores special ability to place a unit in a system without a factory. My opponent--who is listed in the rulebook as a playtester--said that during the testing process it had been ruled that a factory needed to be present.

My counterargument is that this appears to contradict the source material. 40K Orks reproduce via spores, no mechanical intervention required. (Granted that a lot of the Ork units are not entirely biological.) It strikes me that the intention was to allow an Ork unit to pop up somewhere unexpected.

Furthermore, the Ork Spores special ability seems weak if all it does is allow you to take a partial Deploy action without spending an Order token.

Have we heard anything official on this yet?


Here's the official word. After posting last night I submitted the question to FFG and Samuel Bailey got back with me this morning.

Here it is (bold emphasis is mine):
************
Hello Tobin,

Thank you for your question!

“Purchase” as a keyword just means that you must pay material for the thing you are purchasing and must respect your command limit. It does not require you to have a Factory. Having a Factory in a system allows you to “purchase" units in that system when you use a Deploy order, just like using a Strategize order in a system with a friendly unit or structure allows you to “purchase” upgrades. If purchasing required a factory, then purchasing upgrades would be very difficult. If another effect allows you to purchase units, then a factory is not required unless the card specifically states that it is.

The other important keyword here is “Free”. When you gain something for Free you do not need to spend Material or respect your command limit. Gaining something for Free also does not require a Factory to be present.

Also keep in mind that the Chaos Deploy upgrade “Dread Ritual” allows you to purchase 1 unit in the active system without requiring that you have a Factory there. Its a nice trick to build a Structure in a system and then use Dread Ritual to drop a unit that can protect

I hope that helps, and glad you are enjoying the game. It was a lot of fun to design.


Samuel Bailey
Game Developer
*******

So I was wrong in my earlier posts. Here's to Samuel for getting back to me so quickly!

-tpl
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David Thiel
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Yay! Thanks, all!
 
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