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(This is a continuation of Jesus speaking to his disciples as they go to leave the room where they had the last supper.)

"All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you."

Jesus went on to say, "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

At this, some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" They kept asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand what he is saying."

Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me'? Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

"Do you now believe?" Jesus replied. "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
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Stuart
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quozl wrote:
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.


Sometimes we might wonder if God hears our prayers, so, fortunately, here we find a little more instruction from Jesus on exactly how to pray: He informs his apostles they should continue directing their prayers to God, only now they should make any requests in Jesus' own name - it stands to reason if we do likewise, we can be assured God will also hear our supplications and respond favorably.*

I guess, essentially, by not accepting Jesus as the Messiah, the unbelieving Jews were also cutting off their line of communication to God himself?



*I noticed he doesn't say anything about praying to, or through, Mary or any possible future saints - any thoughts on when, or why, doing so became a common practice of the church?
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gamesterinns wrote:
[q="quozl"]
*I noticed he doesn't say anything about praying to, or through, Mary or any possible future saints - any thoughts on when, or why, doing so became a common practice of the church?


False teachings? 2nd Peter 2:1
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Sarxis wrote:
gamesterinns wrote:
[q="quozl"]
*I noticed he doesn't say anything about praying to, or through, Mary or any possible future saints - any thoughts on when, or why, doing so became a common practice of the church?


False teachings? 2nd Peter 2:1


They would certainly appear to be erroneous teachings, given Jesus' words, but how did it come to be an accepted practice in the church? What was the basis given for seeking God's favor, not through Jesus, but through Mary or some other personage? I mean, at some point people must have needed convincing that it was a proper thing to do, right?
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disclaimer: I'm not Catholic, so this is based on my amateur understanding of it

From what I understand, praying to Saints is about intercession, not about worship or seeking favor. The idea being that these holy people are in heaven and have a permanent audience with God, so why not ask for them to speak up on our behalf? So when praying to Mary or Joseph or any other Saint, you asking for their spiritual influence to bend God's ear.

Found this site with explanations (Catholic source). According to Wiki, it goes back to the 200s AD.
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mister lunch wrote:
From what I understand, praying to Saints is about intercession, not about worship or seeking favor. The idea being that these holy people are in heaven and have a permanent audience with God, so why not ask for them to speak up on our behalf? So when praying to Mary or Joseph or any other Saint, you asking for their spiritual influence to bend God's ear.


Adding to this: Growing up Catholic, I was told it was like asking a friend to pray for you.

(Of all the things Protestants criticize Catholics for, this one never made sense to me.)
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Anonymous Author wrote:

Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."


These people... the water to wine, the walking on water, healing the sick, raising the dead... that didn't sway the disciples. All it took was being a plain talking straight shooter.
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Anonymouse512 wrote:
mister lunch wrote:
From what I understand, praying to Saints is about intercession, not about worship or seeking favor. The idea being that these holy people are in heaven and have a permanent audience with God, so why not ask for them to speak up on our behalf? So when praying to Mary or Joseph or any other Saint, you asking for their spiritual influence to bend God's ear.


Adding to this: Growing up Catholic, I was told it was like asking a friend to pray for you.

(Of all the things Protestants criticize Catholics for, this one never made sense to me.)


I only brought it up because Jesus never really mentioned we could do it that way, and here would have been a perfect opportunity to do so. I'm just not sure God meant for prayer to be all that complicated. Now, gaining an audience with a human leader, say the Queen of England, would likely require cashing in a favor or two with someone on the inside, but my impression is God doesn't want us to feel that he is that distant from us - only ask it in Jesus' name, he says, and "...your joy will be complete." Very encouraging, really.
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quozl wrote:
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear."


This is also an enlightening statement, for some may ask, "Why didn't Jesus just lay it all out clearly for his listeners right from the start?"

Apparently, he didn't want them to get information-overload. Perhaps he recognized that for individuals who had been following a 1500-year old system of worship, there were going to be some BIG changes coming up, and they would need time, and help, to make the adjustments?

"Law? What Law? All those sacrifices? Yep, that's out from now on. The Temple? Don't need to go there no more. Circumcision marking you as one of God's chosen people? Nope. Priestly class better than everyone else? Think again. Etc, etc."

He didn't get far as it was, so we can only imagine how well that would have went for him right from the get-go. He pretty much had to do it like the old "Explaining Cricket to a Foreigner" routine. You know,

-You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.
-Each man that’s in the side that’s in the field goes out and when he’s out comes in and the next man goes in until he’s out.
-When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.
-When they are all out, the side that’s out comes in and the side that’s been in goes out and tries to get those coming in out.
-Sometimes there are men still in and not out.
-There are men called umpires who stay out all the time, and they decide when the men who are in are out.
-Depending on the weather and the light, the umpires can also send everybody in, no matter whether they’re in or out.
-When both sides have been in and all the men are out (including those who are not out), then the game is finished.


http://www.futilitycloset.com/2009/12/27/cricket-explained-t...
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God is there to hear our requests and needs. But the thing is, He already knows them. So the encouragement of prayer is less for Him and more for us. Our spiritual connection is about exercise. Focus. The more we focus on Him and matters spiritual, the stronger our ability to do it becomes and the more perceptive to such things we become.

God will do what He does and yes, He will meet our needs. However, prayer should be a part of our daily spiritual workout.
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tstone wrote:
God is there to hear our requests and needs. But the thing is, He already knows them. So the encouragement of prayer is less for Him and more for us. Our spiritual connection is about exercise. Focus. The more we focus on Him and matters spiritual, the stronger our ability to do it becomes and the more perceptive to such things we become.

God will do what He does and yes, He will meet our needs. However, prayer should be a part of our daily spiritual workout.


I don't like exercise for exercise' sake. Sure, I'll probably live longer and healthier with all those muscles _ but what good is all that strength with nothing to use it on?

There's too many examples and teaching in scripture to state that prayer 'is just a cursory nod towards God'. Rather, its real purpose is to change the world according to what God is willing to do by bridging the gap between Him and us.

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Sarxis wrote:
tstone wrote:
God is there to hear our requests and needs. But the thing is, He already knows them. So the encouragement of prayer is less for Him and more for us. Our spiritual connection is about exercise. Focus. The more we focus on Him and matters spiritual, the stronger our ability to do it becomes and the more perceptive to such things we become.

God will do what He does and yes, He will meet our needs. However, prayer should be a part of our daily spiritual workout.


I don't like exercise for exercise' sake. Sure, I'll probably live longer and healthier with all those muscles _ but what good is all that strength with nothing to use it on?

There's too many examples and teaching in scripture to state that prayer 'is just a cursory nod towards God'. Rather, its real purpose is to change the world according to what God is willing to do by bridging the gap between Him and us.



It isn't just for "exercise sake". Neither is physical exercise, for that matter. But in the case of spirituality, yes, it is important to spend time with God. And I didn't use the word "cursory".

But yes, it is important to spend time with God and not just for the purpose of "doing stuff" or "getting stuff".

It is a relationship. And like your relationships with your fellow humans, it is something that requires an invenstment in time and effort to get the most out of.
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tstone wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
tstone wrote:
God is there to hear our requests and needs. But the thing is, He already knows them. So the encouragement of prayer is less for Him and more for us. Our spiritual connection is about exercise. Focus. The more we focus on Him and matters spiritual, the stronger our ability to do it becomes and the more perceptive to such things we become.

God will do what He does and yes, He will meet our needs. However, prayer should be a part of our daily spiritual workout.


I don't like exercise for exercise' sake. Sure, I'll probably live longer and healthier with all those muscles _ but what good is all that strength with nothing to use it on?

There's too many examples and teaching in scripture to state that prayer 'is just a cursory nod towards God'. Rather, its real purpose is to change the world according to what God is willing to do by bridging the gap between Him and us.



It isn't just for "exercise sake". Neither is physical exercise, for that matter. But in the case of spirituality, yes, it is important to spend time with God. And I didn't use the word "cursory".

But yes, it is important to spend time with God and not just for the purpose of "doing stuff" or "getting stuff".

It is a relationship. And like your relationships with your fellow humans, it is something that requires an invenstment in time and effort to get the most out of.


I think we agreed that a good relationship with God will produce good works in the world too? John 1:7, 11:10, 12:35

Asking 'in Jesus name' really means asking 'in the place of' Jesus - as if it were Jesus himself doing the asking. This seems to assume the relationship Jesus had with his father. I think they really do go hand-in-hand: the relationship, and the power to do God's will

p.s. Didn't mean anything personal with 'cursory'.. glad it goaded you though
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It did. Like all our relationships, we can have "casual time" with God.

But our time with God is never cursory.
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Quote:
All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.


The historian in me is crying out to cross reference this with the Jewish followers of Christ being kicked out of synagogue's, to date the creation of this gospel.

Quote:
Jesus went on to say, "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."


This just gets me confused. If your sacrifice is pre-ordained - destined to happen - how can anyone be blamed for it? This is basically saying free will doesn't exist. God will make this happen no matter what anyone wants.

And that's besides the point, because lets face it - Jesus dying while knowing he will be resurrected soon after is not really much of a sacrifice. When you know you've got that ace in your sleeve, you're really not being tortured and executed, you're just having a very painful torture lullaby before you take a long nap. Dead on Friday, feeling fine on Sunday... losing the weekend doesn't seem like that big a thing to give up.
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gamesterinns wrote:
quozl wrote:
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.


Sometimes we might wonder if God hears our prayers, so, fortunately, here we find a little more instruction from Jesus on exactly how to pray: He informs his apostles they should continue directing their prayers to God, only now they should make any requests in Jesus' own name


Doesn't this quote make a testable proposition - that is failed almost every second of every day?

I will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Whatever you ask.

Yet people starve to death by the score every day, for all of history, often with a prayer on their lips. Many with a prayer to Jesus on their lips.

I'm sure there is all sorts of convoluted reasoning on why plain words don't have plain meetings (it all depends on what you define "is" to mean, etc), thus negating the plain meaning of this. Bah. The whole idea of God as some cosmic vending machine you can stuff full of prayers and get free stuff has always seemed to me like a vain and stupid notion.
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dtolman wrote:
And that's besides the point, because lets face it - Jesus dying while knowing he will be resurrected soon after is not really much of a sacrifice. When you know you've got that ace in your sleeve, you're really not being tortured and executed, you're just having a very painful torture lullaby before you take a long nap. Dead on Friday, feeling fine on Sunday... losing the weekend doesn't seem like that big a thing to give up.


Even if I knew I'd be OK at the end of it, being tortured to death still seems like a sacrifice to me.
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But wasn't the death the sacrifice? I mean the torture sucked, I'm sure, but that wasn't the main event that made if a sacrifice.
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dtolman wrote:
But wasn't the death the sacrifice? I mean the torture sucked, I'm sure, but that wasn't the main event that made if a sacrifice.


I was answering it as if it were me. Death would be a release, not a sacrifice.
 
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