Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
9 Posts

Marvel Heroes» Forums » Variants

Subject: More Nemesis intervention rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So my first impression of this game is that it's tons of fun but the archnemeses just don't get into the game enough. Plus, the player has full control over whether they will be facing an archnemesis or not. I'd like there to be a surprise element to it. You know, you go to the museum to investigate a mundae disappearance of some artifact, and then suddenly Doctor Doom leaps out from behind some Brontosaurus femur and lets out a maniacal laugh without warning.

My first thought, and I certainly welcome any better suggestions, is just to ingore the lightning bolt symbols on the headline, and instead you roll a standard d6 for *any* headline after announcing your intention to troubleshoot, and the die result will indicate whether it's a nemesis encounter or not.

The formula would be IF (Dice Roll) < (Headline Level) then you must face the nemesis.

So...
Headline = 3 :: Nemesis = 1-2, No Nemesis = 3-6
Headline = 4 :: Nemesis = 1-3, No Nemesis = 4-6
Headline = 5 :: Nemesis = 1-4, No Nemesis = 5-6
Headline = 6 :: Nemesis = 1-5, No Nemesis = 6

Scenarios which increase the trouble level also increase the chance of a nemesis being present. The archnemesis token works as normal.

I think this would not only increase the number of battles where you were forced to confront the villain, but it also adds that all-important *unpredictability* and takes control of that away from the player.

If this is deemed too potent, I think that could be balanced by forcing the nemesis, when encountered, to choose EITHER to go for a Master Plan OR to do scheming, but NOT both.

Any thoughts?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GodRob
United States
Culpeper
Virginia
flag msg tools
While primarily used for killing vampires, a wooden stake to the heart is also highly effective against most other opponents.
badge
Everybody wants to be a Game Designer but nobody wants to be a Game Designer.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lots of thoughts, most of them not making any sense. Ooh! Numbered Thoughts!

1. I agree with the lack of nemesis activity in the Born Again scenario. I haven't tried the others yet, but I've heard that there is more there. I've also heard that there is more nemesis activity in a two-player game.

2. I like the idea of ANY headline possibly being a nemesis encounter. Also, the simple die resolution (roll less than threat number: no nemesis, roll greater than or equal to threat number: nemesis).

3. What other ways are there to increase the threat number OTHER than nemesis scheming?

4. Just realised I've been playing the scheming wrong, adding the nemesis threat rating to the TROUBLE LEVEL instead of the THREAT NUMBER! Wonder how much this changes things?

5. Anyway, the only problem I have with nemesis encounters (in the Born Again scenario; I can't speak for the others yet) is that there really isn't any incentive to try to stop him. Go ahead and take the prologue master plan. I'll just get my power up at no risk using the story cards, and the game will be over before he can get his second.

6. My last game ended on the 2nd game round, Fantastic Four with 16 VPs, all three other teams between 9 and 12. Since the FF was in 2nd place at the start of the game round, Doctor Doom never even appeared.

7. New idea (but I still like yours, maybe in addition?): Headlines are removed if a team troubleshoots it or if the villain carries out his plans and defeats the heroes. But what about Headlines that are never challenged? Are the villains just sitting there waiting for a hero to come by before they start?

7a. I propose a time limit, say, the end of the game round in which the headline was played. If any still exist (usually the case at the end of game round 1), then ONE nemesis gets a free Master Plan for EACH Headline left unchallenged. Justification: villain pulls off heist / crime and is recruited by a nemesis.

7b. Pretty harsh, how about just for each headline with a "mastermind" icon on the threat number? Justification: We already know a nemesis is behind the threat. Does he just give up if nobody shows up to stop him?

7c. Which nemesis gets the reward? Least masterplans? Nemesis of team in the lead? The nemesis whose threat rating is highest in the threat type on the card? other?

Just ideas, I'll definitely try your die-roll-method AFTER I've played through all of the scenarios a few times.

8. I don't usually mess with game rules too much. If something seems unballanced, especially in a game made by Nexus, then I'm probably playing wrong or using poor strategy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
robertg611 wrote:
5. Anyway, the only problem I have with nemesis encounters (in the Born Again scenario; I can't speak for the others yet) is that there really isn't any incentive to try to stop him. Go ahead and take the prologue mater plan. I'll just get my power up at no risk using the story cards.


This was part of what I was trying to fix. I have yet to hear of a nemesis EVR completing his Master Plan, so who cares about conceding part of it to them?

robertg611 wrote:
8. I don't usually mess with game rules too much. If something seems unballanced, especially in a game made by Nexus, then I'm probably playing wrong or using poor strategy.


Sure, of course. I don't think the game is imbalanced, though. On the contrary, every game I've played has been very close. This is just a reaction to the fact that the nemeses aren't used in the game as much as I'd hoped they'd be. Will tweaking it imbalance the game? Maybe. But maybe that's a good trade off. I'm just throwing out ideas, 'cause villains are cool.

I'm going to give this method a try next time I play with an experienced group. So far all my plays have been teaching games.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GodRob
United States
Culpeper
Virginia
flag msg tools
While primarily used for killing vampires, a wooden stake to the heart is also highly effective against most other opponents.
badge
Everybody wants to be a Game Designer but nobody wants to be a Game Designer.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One point I never got around to making in my previous, long, rambling, numbered post:

I get the feeling that the Born Again scenario is just a learning tool and the full aspects of the nemesis (nemesi?) will be revealed as I play more scenarios. A "Basic" scenario, where the others are more "advanced".

I'm probably the last person to get this feeling. It might even be stated in the rules. Maybe on page 5.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ricky Gray
United States
Powder Springs
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In a two player game, unless the players are tied, the leading player should have to face his nemesis every single time he troubleshoots. And it gets mighty expensive in Plot Points to prepare to face him every single round.

Are you sure you folks are playing the Archnemesis rule correctly? I.e., that the Archnemesis player can treat ANY headline that the enemy of the Archnemesis tries to troubleshoot as a Mastermind headline?

Also, no offense intended, but someone would be a fool to allow an opponent to sit there and continue to rack up story cards for himself. That is too easy to stop.

Great game!
Ricky

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Preacher wrote:
In a two player game, unless the players are tied, the leading player should have to face his nemesis every single time he troubleshoots. And it gets mighty expensive in Plot Points to prepare to face him every single round.

Sure, in a two-player game. But not all games are two-player games.

It also brings up again the central point of why I'm doing this: that provided you're not in first, you can very easily engineer entire turns where you don't face the nemesis at all. Considering the game is only 3 or 4 turns long in most cases, that's a huge percentage of the time in which the nemesis has zero chance of getting into the game. My whole motivation for this exercise is to eliminate that mechanic where the *player* controls whether the nemesis enters play or not. I don't like that level of certainty that you're safe from significant harm.

From my experience in these combats, the heroes will win 90% of all lead villain combats and about 50% of all nemesis combats. The nemeses just aren't making any real dent in how the game plays out. And the Master Plans just never get a chance to get into play. I've never even seen a Master Plan get to level 2, never mind 3. Gotta be something wrong with that.

With the plot points available, most teams are going to only attempt one headline per game turn, *if that*. Having the lead team just sit out the turn when their nemesis is the arch is not unheard of. Just do the math. The opportunities for the nemesis to do anything significant are just not there.

Preacher wrote:
Are you sure you folks are playing the Archnemesis rule correctly? I.e., that the Archnemesis player can treat ANY headline that the enemy of the Archnemesis tries to troubleshoot as a Mastermind headline?

Of course I am. You clearly are playing only two-player games. There's only one archnemesis token, that means the other three teams can run around the city completely threat-free for an entire turn, which translates into about a quarter of the game. Assuming the archnemesis token gets shared evenly in a 4-turn game (which is pretty typical), and each team only attempts one headline per turn, smart players will face their nemesis exactly ONCE in an entire game with four players. The lightning bolt headlines really aren't that prolific.

One battle against your nemesis is nothing to get worked up about, and also renders a lot of the purpose of the nemesis completely moot.

Preacher wrote:
Also, no offense intended, but someone would be a fool to allow an opponent to sit there and continue to rack up story cards for himself. That is too easy to stop.

Well, I assume you're talking to the other guy since I haven't mentioned story cards, but I find this comment curious. You've got Hulk who can discard 2 story cards once per game turn, IF you've put him in a support role, Jean Grey who can cycle out 2 story cards once per game turn IF you've put her in a support role, and... and what? How is it "too easy to stop"?

Again, this comment strikes me as coming from somebody who plays the bulk of their games with two players. With half the story cards being neutral "dummy" story cards, there are lots of ways to strategically manage the story track, as you've mentioned. But with more teams in the game, every story card is a potential pick up for *somebody*. And there just aren't enough ways to stop it. Maybe two people can engage in an exercise of "dueling story track shuffling" with repeated story actions where they keep adjusting theirs to the top rather than advance the track, but that uses up valuable actions that you need for movement and troubleshooting. And it doesn't really work, because that just means one of them is going to get screwed as their card will be at the top at turn end, and their card disappears. So yeah, story cards get picked up and collected more frequently in a multi-player game, and it's not all that prudent to waste too much time stopping that when you should be out solving headlines.

So I guess I'm not following you here.

Preacher wrote:
Great game!
Ricky

Agreed!

-----
UPDATE

On topic: I'm currently playing a solitair play through, 4-team game, using the nemesis variant I proposed above. I included the alternate rule that nemeses have to choose between Plan or Scheming. I'm only on turn 2 so far, but the nemeses are all over the place so far. So I may have overcompensated a bit. Magneto already has two Master Plans in play, but then that might be fine since the X-Men also have a pretty sizeable lead. I can't really evaluate this until the entire game has played out. But I'll tell you one thing: it's wicked fun.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OK, I've tried playing through one time. It's fun. But due to the added nemesis intervention, I noticed one other thing happening - more team power-ups entering play. And with Master Plans having a higher chance of getting completed, making victory points the sole decider of the game basically means that whoever prevents the Master Plans the best is likely to win. So I'm making a modification. Here is my current proposal for a new scenario...

-----

(It is currently unnamed)

EFFECT:

Headlines without lightning bolts now have the added possibility of a nemesis interference. Roll a standard d6 when a troubleshooting action begins. If the result is less than the threat level of the headline, the nemesis can become involved in the scenario just like the standard lightning bolt headlines in the basic game, except that the nemesis must choose to EITHER attempt a Master Plan OR do Scheming, but not both.

Headlines with lightning bolts are also modified in that the nemesis gets involved but in this case will attempt a Master Plan IN ADDITION to scheming. The Mastermind MUST attempt the Master Plan in a lightning bolt headline.

The archnemesis token works normally in that all headlines are treated as lightning bolt headlines for that team.

VICTORY:

The game ends at the end of the 4th Game Round. The winner is the team with the most Team Power-Ups in play. If tied, then it is the one with more victory points.

-----

The goal of this scenario is to have a game with lots of nemesis battles, if that's your cup of tea. The choice to execute a Master Plan becomes more interesting now for the nemesis, with the increased importance of the Team Power-Up. I made the Master Plan mandatory for the lightning bolt headlines so that a crafty villain couldn't just refuse to try the Master Plans when faced with a buffed up hero team. Another added effect is the increased importance of story track strategy. Preventing your opponent from claiming story cards now becomes more important. Victory points are still important as well since there are only three team power-ups and ties should be common.

I'm going to try a solitaire play-through with this scenario and will post a session report in this thread when done.

As usual, suggestions and criticisms are welcome (but be prepared to debate your point, I likes me a good debate). I also need somebody more familiar with Marvel lore to suggest a name for this scenario.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GodRob
United States
Culpeper
Virginia
flag msg tools
While primarily used for killing vampires, a wooden stake to the heart is also highly effective against most other opponents.
badge
Everybody wants to be a Game Designer but nobody wants to be a Game Designer.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think I made any reference to story cards either, Ricky.

Please elaborate.

On the other issue, I'm looking forward to my first two-player game. I will gladly stay one VP behind my opponent for a few turns just to pummel him with his arch nemesis! (that doesn't mean what it sounds like!)

Edit: Played quite a few more games in the last few days. I'm learning to play the nemesiseseses (sp?) much better. And some of the scenarios are just downright tough! I wouldn't think increasing the threat level by 1 would make that much of a difference but it does. I don't think I'll be modifying the rules anytime soon.

I didn't like the brood scenario as much. No one is forced to play a Most Wanted villain, so I don't ever see it ending that way. We actually went out of our way NOT to play them!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Payne
United States
houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
the player who doesn't stand a chance of winning will want to play them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.