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Subject: Not received my kick starter and they are ignoring me. What do I do? rss

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Nicola Cheney
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Please help. I kickstarted Parfum back in March and got 2 other games I've been after with it. So spent a lot for me. Around £50.

I knew it was possibly coming in July so not been concerned, but it's now turned up in my FLGS and so I though I'd see where my game was in arriving.

I've not kickstarted before ( and doubt I will again) so not fully sure how it works.

I've contacted to ask by emailing them a week ago and by asking in the kickstarter itself. They haven't replied to either of these.

They said they shipped out in May but I thought that was initially to America now I'm not so sure.

They took my money pretty much immediately so I've paid.

Should I be worried or am I just being too eager? I'd really appreciate some advice on what I should do.
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Tyler Kaftan
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It's my understanding that, as a Kickstarter backer, you technically have no legal recourse if they fail to deliver their promised "rewards"...
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Chuck Harrison
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I see someone else in the Kickstarter comments who mentions they received their reward in the UK on May 11. I'd email them again, Queen is known for being slow to answer emails, but keep trying.
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Daniel Kearns
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This is quite common for Queen games as is their lack of email response.

Normally people post issues in the comment section of Queen's current kickstarter project (even though it is unrelated to Parfum). They don't seem to have one current at the moment but it shouldn't be too long.

You could also post on the Parfum BGG page or on the Queen games BGG publisher page. I don't think they check either but you'll see many similar problems.

Queen Games

Also, I found this on one of their other kickstarter pages that shipped:

Quote:
The shipping is completed. If any of you have not received their pledge or have any issues please do not hesitate to contact me

j.humburg@queen-games.de

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Brian Jurney
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I had this problem with Escape Big Box. It took about 10 e-mails with 2-3 of their reps to get resolved. Just e-mailing them initially didnt get a response. I had to get their attention by going on to their current Kickstarter at the time and posting a comment.
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Melody Hill
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Kaftan wrote:
It's my understanding that, as a Kickstarter backer, you technically have no legal recourse if they fail to deliver their promised "rewards"...


Sadly I think this is right. You take a risk when backing someone on KS. I backed someone years ago for some books--and get updates on them every few months or so, so I know they're coming but not yet-not as promised. So sometimes it just takes time. It's a shame when the creator doesn't respond to you.

You just have to realize what kind of platform KS is and how people use it to start up a business or game or whatever, and it's hard for them, on that side of things to get everything made as promised and some people who aren't as experienced and thorough on KS, they promise things they just can't produce.

They get as excited as you about getting kickstarted and then they have the money and the people waiting expectantly and they're like "oh s*hit I have to find people to produce my high-quality item". Sometimes people experience KS like that and it's a shame.

So I'm sorry if you never get what you backed. You can try to keep contacting them. Do they have updates? Because that's usually a good sign, it means they're actively working on getting the product to you. These endeavors might be easy to fund but then when production time comes it's suddenly real for them and they realize they can't handle producing a game, book, gadget, etc. Because doing so is fundamentally hard.
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David desJardins
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Kaftan wrote:
It's my understanding that, as a Kickstarter backer, you technically have no legal recourse if they fail to deliver their promised "rewards"...


Your understanding is wrong as can be. You have the same rights as any other customer, especially if you're in the US.
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Daniel Kearns
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Kaftan wrote:
It's my understanding that, as a Kickstarter backer, you technically have no legal recourse if they fail to deliver their promised "rewards"...


Your understanding is wrong as can be. You have the same rights as any other customer, especially if you're in the US.


It looks like the OP is outside the U.S. What are the rights of the kickstarter customer?
 
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David Hoffman
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I'm still waiting (ha) for my Dark Darker Darkest BGG contest prize (as well as the Kickstarter extras I then pledged for to :complete: the package).

Um, good luck.
 
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Kolby Reddish
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ohbalto wrote:
I'm still waiting (ha) for my Dark Darker Darkest BGG contest prize (as well as the Kickstarter extras I then pledged for to :complete: the package).

Um, good luck.


Have you put BGG on them? They shouldn't let them run new contests without fulfilling old ones.
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Yeah, as previously said, this is unfortunately usual for Queen Games. I backed (among others) their Escape kickstarter and it turned up in my FLGS about a month before I got it.

As previously mentioned, the best bet is to comment on one of their active kickstarters (even if not related). They don't have one right now, but they seem to launch one about every other month. They're always afraid to scare current backers, so they answer pretty quickly in the comments of an active project.

That being said, the somewhat good news is that Queen Games has rather awful shipping and KS practices, but they usually end up delivering. So you could do nothing, and it will turn up... eventually.

Good luck.
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reddish22 wrote:

Have you put BGG on them? They shouldn't let them run new contests without fulfilling old ones.


BGG also didn't mind Queen running the contest for Kingdom Builder: Marshlands, even though Queen didn't even have the rights to publish the game when they planned to and subsequently had to cancel the whole campaign.
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Chuck Harrison
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Casus Belli wrote:
That being said, the somewhat good news is that Queen Games has rather awful shipping and KS practices, but they usually end up delivering. So you could do nothing, and it will turn up... eventually.

Good luck.

That's probably not good advice in this case. They shipped the games for this Kickstarter in Europe at the beginning of May, and the US shipment was finished over a month ago. Sitting and waiting is not likely to work.

The best bet is to email your Kickstarter name and mailing address to:
j.humburg@queen-game.de
and
r.gupta@queen-games.de

I doubt anyone from Queen is looking at this Kickstarter project anymore since as far as they know it is complete.
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Andreas Krüger
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Tzer wrote:
reddish22 wrote:

Have you put BGG on them? They shouldn't let them run new contests without fulfilling old ones.


BGG also didn't mind Queen running the contest for Kingdom Builder: Marshlands, even though Queen didn't even have the rights to publish the game when they planned to and subsequently had to cancel the whole campaign.


Technically, BGG could not know whether Queen might have published Marshlands somewhere in the world in due time. When it was clear that Queen would lose the license, they took down the Kickstarter. The contest continued, because the prizes were not related to the kickstarted game expansion. I think in this case BGG would have gone too far by breaking their advertising contract.
 
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Amy Roberts
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As others have mentioned, this is normal operating procedure for Queen Games. Doesn't make it right but it's the norm from them. Shipping usually takes ages if you're outside the US but it usually arrives eventually.

In addition to the email addresses above, I got the best response from Peter who was the assistant export manager back in January. His email is p.hellmeister@queen-games.de

My understanding is that Ship Naked is now handling their distribution. They *should* be able to provide a tracking number if you request it...or at least give you an estimated delivery time. But this can vary wildly. I finally received the Alhambra Big Box last week. Nearly 2 weeks after other people in my country received it (although some people are clearly still waiting).

Good luck.
 
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David Turczi
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Don't distrust the whole KS system. There are very good publishers on it.

Just don't back Queen ever again. But til then, good luck to you making them find your copy!
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Tyler Kaftan
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dkearns wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Kaftan wrote:
It's my understanding that, as a Kickstarter backer, you technically have no legal recourse if they fail to deliver their promised "rewards"...


Your understanding is wrong as can be. You have the same rights as any other customer, especially if you're in the US.


It looks like the OP is outside the U.S. What are the rights of the kickstarter customer?


Even in the US, the "backer" is still a non-equity donor (as opposed to investor). Yes, the SEC has been targeting blatant fraudsters, but if the start-up legitimately fails to deliver the product (like others before me have said, usually due to manufacturing or over-conservative budgeting issues), the "backers" are out of luck.

Ultimately, the backers have no legal recourse. They are not, as DaviddesJ wrote, a "customer". soblue
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Andreas Krüger
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Kaftan wrote:

but if the start-up legitimately fails to deliver the product (like others before me have said, usually due to manufacturing or over-conservative budgeting issues), the "backers" are out of luck.


There is certainly more risk involved in a Kickstarter project than in other customer-vendor-relationships. This is why they have a risks and challenges section. So, the customer definition may not fully apply in all cases.

However, "no legal recourse" is a much too broad statement. In many, many cases, the backer will be regarded as a customer by the legal system.

In this case, they have finished the production and the company is still there and has either cash or a game available to satisfy the backer (at least today, who knows what happens to them tomorrow). The project did not fail, neither legitimately nor not-legitimately.

On the other hand, applying the legal recourse in practice could be quite a challenge. From what I have heard, it must be easier in the EU than in the USA. Not sure about the UK, specifically, though.
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Tyler Kaftan
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
However, "no legal recourse" is a much too broad statement. In many, many cases, the backer will be regarded as a customer by the legal system.

In this case, they have finished the production and the company is still there and has either cash or a game available to satisfy the backer (at least today, who knows what happens to them tomorrow). The project did not fail, neither legitimately nor not-legitimately.

Indeed - when the proprietor exists and is producing the product, now we're getting into fraud territory! I spoke out of context; I intended the "no legal recourse" phrase to apply to a legitimately failed enterprise outside of fraud considerations. I admit I'm not particularly familiar with the EU structure, but I'm fairly confident they have a department similar to the US SEC that equally frowns upon this sort of thing

Thamos von Nostria wrote:
On the other hand, applying the legal recourse in practice could be quite a challenge. From what I have heard, it must be easier in the EU than in the USA. Not sure about the UK, specifically, though.

Great point, ha. The high costs of even taking that route are inherently a barrier-to-entry for most of us.
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David desJardins
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Kaftan wrote:
Ultimately, the backers have no legal recourse. They are not, as DaviddesJ wrote, a "customer". soblue


In general, where customer protection laws have been applied in the US, the relevant authorities have taken the position that a Kickstarter pledge is a purchase and gives the backer exactly the same rights as any customer who orders goods. Of course, that is no guarantee of legal success, and if a company is insolvent any purchaser is just a creditor (standing ahead of some creditors and behind of others) and may not get anything in liquidation.
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Daniel Kearns
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In the case of Doom that Came to Altantic City the FTC injunction was based on misrepresentation rather than failure to deliver goods.
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Jason Cross
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Nicola

if you don't hear back from any of those email addresses helpfully posted above, I would suggest speaking to a local Citizen's Advice Bureau about your legal options and perhaps looking at the small claims court (for a nominal sum - refunded if you win - you can pursue claims upto a few £thousand without the expensive overheads of the full legal system) to pursue your product and/or money

Good luck.
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Waspinator
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Kaftan wrote:
Ultimately, the backers have no legal recourse. They are not, as DaviddesJ wrote, a "customer". soblue


In general, where customer protection laws have been applied in the US, the relevant authorities have taken the position that a Kickstarter pledge is a purchase and gives the backer exactly the same rights as any customer who orders goods. Of course, that is no guarantee of legal success, and if a company is insolvent any purchaser is just a creditor (standing ahead of some creditors and behind of others) and may not get anything in liquidation.

Yeah, it appears that US law considers these pledges to be purchases even if KS doesn't want to view them that way.
 
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David desJardins
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TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, it appears that US law considers these pledges to be purchases even if KS doesn't want to view them that way.


KS doesn't mind viewing them that way, either. They warn project creators that they must fulfill their rewards or they could be subject to legal action.
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Jack Swan
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Queen is certainly not the only company neglecting their responsibilities towards KS backers. It seems there is just no incentive for some people and companies in a money-first operation. KS lets you pay upfront and puts all risk on the backer. Receiving a large amount of money does not motivate all project creators to do what decent people would do. It's the inherent risk of the system. Currently I am waiting for three of my rewards, without any means to put some pressure on the responsible parties.

I doubt I will back anymore KS projects in the future, because I don't like being ignored and I HATE people who take advantage of my trust. I feel nothing but contempt for them, as they not only hurt the backers but also the gaming community in general.
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