Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
55 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Shadowrift» Forums » General

Subject: I'm interested but... well... I'm scared of Game Salute rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
James McMillan
Scotland
Cupar
Fife
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I haven't bought a GS game before but this one really interests me. The problem is that all I've ever heard about GS is negative press. Now I completely accept that most news is bad news and you don't hear the good stuff, but I am wary.

To make me more nervous it looks like there were problems with the last kickstarter for Shadowrift (the Archfiend expansion).

Does anyone have any experience with GS kickstarters and, in particular, the last Shadowrift KS. It would help to be a bit more informed before making a decision here.

Cheers
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
Norway
Oslo
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The good stuff about Game Salute: Alien Frontiers.

The bad stuff: Well, practically every other KS they have ever been the manufacturer for. We waited for ages for Formula E, King's Forge and still waiting for Area 1851 for instance.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
that Matt
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.
badge
I can feel bits of my brain falling away like wet cake.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As long as you plan for massive unexplained delays.

And as long as you don't expect it to come in a box.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon
United States
Fremont
CA
flag msg tools
badge
For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JadedGamer wrote:
The good stuff about Game Salute: Alien Frontiers.

The bad stuff: Well, practically every other KS they have ever been the manufacturer for. We waited for ages for Formula E, King's Forge and still waiting for Area 1851 for instance.


They're fine with Keyflower too. Their CS is hit or miss, but they're pretty responsive to the first email at least. If they have to do nothing, they're great.

I backed several "print-ready" things by them in my earlier days and I don't think a single one was actually ready for print. It took a minimum 6th month delay before manufacturing. They also had some issues just this weekend with their boxless game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/28
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
drjmcmillan wrote:
I haven't bought a GS game before but this one really interests me. The problem is that all I've ever heard about GS is negative press. Now I completely accept that most news is bad news and you don't hear the good stuff, but I am wary.

The first edition of Shadowrift was published by Game Salute and it is a solid product. I don't expect that to change unless the KS for 2nd edition explodes with a bunch of stretch goals that GS is unprepared to deliver. I think Jeremy is being careful to prevent that from happening.

My only experience with a Game Salute kickstarter is Wok Star. It was 6 months late, had really ugly painted wooden tokens that had to be covered up with stickers, and did not deliver on one of the stretch goals (a timer app). Oh, and the electronic timer was so quiet that nobody could hear it, but that was not a universal problem - a few of us got bad timers and GS was very good about replacing them.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Everts
United States
Foothill Ranch
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
"Nobody gets me. I'm the wind, baby!" - Tom Servo
badge
"Push the button, Frank!"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've been very happy with all my Game Salute Kickstarter games. Even the Alien Frontiers Rocket Dice. Though I know some hated them.

They can be late but they've always delivered the product and I've always had quality games. And I've backed over 100 products on KS so have some experience it.

So not everyone has problems with Game Salute. The problem is the vocal people will complain so everyone assumes GS is evil. But you don't hear from the people that are perfectly happy.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Anderson
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
mbmb
Well, lessee...
There are horror stories of late deliveries.
But as you said, you don't get news when they deliver product on time and it's good product.
Ruse, Penny Arcade: Red Tide, Serpent Stones, Blackwater Gulch...there are more than fifty examples of products they've funded and then successfully delivered to backers.

As for what happened with the Archfiends campaign, there was a bit of a perfect storm. I mistook my role in things, and thought that having passed it off I could just forget about it. But people WANT the designer present. And then the primary Game Salute employees working on the project left. And then the print company Game Salute was working with turned out to be intolerably bad and they had to switch print companies.
The loss of employees wasn't really avoidable - they moved out-of-state for reasons unrelated to the company itself. Likewise there wasn't a way to know early that the print company would crap out that way.
The failure - mine and Game Salute's - was communication. As I say, I'd walked away with the mistaken assumption that my part in the equation was done. And with too many other projects on the table, Game Salute just didn't revisit the Kickstarter when they didn't have actual news. But it was far too long before they had a solution incoming. The result was months of dead air, which is completely unacceptable and doubly so once the product is late.
Archfiends is shipping. It's got good art and it's on good cardstock and the box is nice (although there was also a mistaken promise made by a misinformed GS employee and it's not as big as he said it was at one point in the comments).

My point with the above tale of woe isn't to try and direct you to avoid the Kickstarter. I'll understand if you decide to wait until it's a product on shelves, of course, because the one Kickstarter I've succeeded with is a late delivery. But I also want you to know that there are multiple safeguards in place to make sure every aspect of what went wrong last time has been corrected. Game Salute has been consistently shrinking their pool of incoming games to something manageable, the staff members assigned this project are so core that if they leave Game Salute is dead in the water, I no longer intend to walk off like a Bond villain and assume that everything will go according to plan, and the deadline gives us some wiggle room even if an artist flakes out and we have to rehire to get the illustrations done. And the new print company, at the bare minimum, produced Archfiends well. I've gotten my advance copy. The print job is good.

My view on Game Salute is that they were just accepting too many projects. They didn't do the math on how many projects would simply be too many administrative hours and cause them to lose track of things. And so for a while, they were losing track of things. As they scale back their line, that'll stop. And I have their CEO's home number. They won't be losing track of Shadowrift. cool
23 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
that Matt
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.
badge
I can feel bits of my brain falling away like wet cake.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tumorous wrote:
And as long as you don't expect it to come in a box.

Just to be clear, I wasn't making some exaggeration as a joke here:

Oops! Game Salute did it again
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Schott
United States
Roanoke
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I backed several projects.

Alien Frontiers expansions - that eventually delivered, but was insanely late. Apparently the excuse was that we were waiting for artwork to be completed (which would be understandable, but this was still apparently waiting for months after funding).

Card Game of Oz - I don't think we quite got what we were expecting there and if you do a little digging you can find the designer's experience with Game Salute. (It wasn't a great experience for him and he ended up fixing some of the issues out of his pocket.) Oh, and the dice were horribly printed - somehow even managing to get dice that shouldn't have ever existed. GS replaced the bad dice, but we shouldn't have had them pop up in the first place as they were nowhere in the original design for the game. (They also were posted in a Formula E update instead of their intended game update so someone didn't know what products they were publishing very well.)

Wok Star - I originally backed, but asked for a refund before shipping (which I eventually got). To me, the dishonesty during that campaign was the thing that caused me to ask for the refund. The game was supposed to be "print ready" (they redesigned it - for the worse). Stretch goals were dropped after funding. (with some pretty lame excuses) The timer issue causing delays that we didn't find out about until the games were supposed to be on the way to the US. The shoddy tokens that Tim Fowers paid to fix with stickers. Lack of any communication until everything started to go south. It was a really poorly run campaign and the primary reason GS isn't getting any more of my KS money. I am watching for a pattern of them changing and then the "game without a box" popped up yesterday. So - still no change as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, some campaigns have done well and delivered on time. However, there are quite a few that have had issues in the last year or so.

Does that mean that you shouldn't back Shadowrift? No. However, you should be aware of the sort of thing that you could run into with games published by GS. (And no disrespect to the designer intended. The game seems solid from what I've read.)
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Gong
United States
Kingsburg
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm right there with the OP. This is my first GS-affiliated project backing, so I can only hope it's better than before. Better late than never. 2016 works for me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dann May
Australia
Victoria
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Hi! Pleased to meet you.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Can I just add in as the Art Director that I think the games we develop in-house have good art, design, thematic development and components. Not all the games that were badged Game Salute over the course have necessarily been developed in-house (because Game Salute for a long time was doing a lot of work with different independent publishers) but those we do develop and publish in house I think have been consistently strong in those areas. Shadowrift will be an in-house development.

Edit: I should add that my experience with the company was as a freelancer for some time, working on specific titles, and only recently have I come on board full time, so I can really only vouch directly for the projects I've been involved with over the course (in the context as art director and an artist). But moving forward the plan is of course to always strive for excellence in the creative content and presentation of our games.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Skyguard
msg tools
mbmb
Jumpseat wrote:
Can I just add in as the Art Director that I think the games we develop in-house have good art, design, thematic development and components. Not all the games that were badged Game Salute over the course have necessarily been developed in-house (because Game Salute for a long time was doing a lot of work with different independent publishers) but those we do develop and publish in house I think have been consistently strong in those areas. Shadowrift will be an in-house development.

Edit: I should add that my experience with the company was as a freelancer for some time, working on specific titles, and only recently have I come on board full time, so I can really only vouch directly for the projects I've been involved with over the course (in the context as art director and an artist). But moving forward the plan is of course to always strive for excellence in the creative content and presentation of our games.


So you're happy with, 9-Shooter Quick Draw not coming with a printed box?, The miss statements about Nova Cry being at the printers to the point the designer started legal action to get the rights to the game back because it was so late in printing and Game Salute was making statement that it was at the printers that seem to have no true behind them? Sangoku and Legends of the American Frontier being over a year late with no end in sight? Ruse not coming with some items that were pledged for?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Italy
Torino
flag msg tools
[______|_hi]
badge
[intentionally left blank]
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was gamesaluted just once, but it was kinda epic. (The Wok Star 2nd edition kick starter.)

I asked in the Shadowrift forums what would be in the hands of Jeremy Anderson (the designer) and what in the hands of Game Salute.
Jeremy explained clearly, there and here, the errors that were made and why he thinks this time it will be better. I trust him enough.

Also, I like better a world with more Shadowrift in it (the game, not actual rifts with dragons and undead popping out -shudder).

So I decided to back it at the base game level.
I think we should be prepared to delays and normal kick starter mayhem. I hope any problem would be communicated clearly to backers.
The game is scheduled so ahead in time to avoid rushing things and have some buffer in case of delays.

In short, I have hopes.
On the other hand, as a general rule, I always kickstart only with money that I am comfortable risking (I could get nothing back); as I said this is my general rule, not tied to this or any another specific kickstarter. (Until now I have been lucky.)

Edit: spelling.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James McMillan
Scotland
Cupar
Fife
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for all your advice everyone. I'll wait for retail I think but I wish the designer all the best.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Armand
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
paschott wrote:
Does that mean that you shouldn't back Shadowrift? No.


Sorry, but the answer is 'Yes'. That's exactly what it means.

You have a great guy, very responsible, very talented as the designer.

And you have a known liar (Dan Yarrington) as the publisher.

How many liars does it take to screw you over?

One. Just one. And there's nothing the designer can do about it.

Harsh words on the home phone? Really? You think a guy like Yarrington responds to strong words?

In the US you enforce contractual obligations by going to court. That means paying lawyers. Specifically, it means paying them much more than you stand to gain by having your contract upheld.

(See Martin Wallace, Discworld, Railways, etc.)

If you back a GS game - or choose GS as a publisher - you are choosing to trust someone who has proven repeatedly that he cannot be trusted.


I know this sounds very harsh but after reading pages and pages of BS about Yarrington and his company, the reality is this stark.

There is nothing that could make me buy any product published by GS. Not even the 2ed of a known winner like Shadowrift.


Jeremy,

I wish you the best of luck with your project. I sincerely hope that it works out for you, that you and your backers are among the lucky ones who don't get screwed over, and that if it does, you don't put yourself in this untenable position again. You seem like a good and honest person. I hope you can find like minds to work with in the future.

-Armand

edit: typos
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Schott
United States
Roanoke
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Armand, while I'm generally inclined to agree with you, it's ultimately up to the person spending the money to decide whether to back or not. I won't (for many of the reasons you stated and more), but others may want to try to back the designer even if it is a GS project. (Of course, I tried that with Card Game of Oz - the designer wanted to put out a great game and I credit him for trying to make some things right. There are some interesting discussions that may still be around in those forums.)

So my takeaway - you've read the warnings. You've read the histories. It's ultimately your money, and you've been warned about the general nature of GS-produced projects.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Anderson
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
mbmb
At this point the Shadowrift 2nd Edition Kickstarter is approaching 300% funded, which makes me very very happy.

I've told a backer directly on the Kickstarter page: I will not begrudge any backer who refuses to back Shadowrift because they don't trust us anymore. I was part of the failure of communication on the Archfiends Kickstarter, and I won't ask anyone not to learn from their past experiences, though I will attempt to entice them with sweet deals.

I've laid out why I believe Game Salute's changes in internal policy will result in more reliable delivery of product. It's why I trust them to deliver THIS product. And if you don't trust them, I can't do much more for that. If you don't trust them to deliver on Kickstarter promises, find their booth at GenCon next year. See whether they've made the game, and if they have, see whether the print job and components are good.
And if it turns out to be a good game at a good price, let it turn the dial of your opinion of them one click toward the good.

I've read the two big anti-Game Salute threads here. I really do understand people's grievances. I also know a great deal about Game Salute's inner workings, and consequently happen to know that SOME of those grievances are an utter crock.
I won't ask you to trust them when they TELL you that they've turned over a new leaf. All I'm asking is that if they DO turn over a new leaf and prove it, you notice the ways they're changing for the better.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Armand
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
karishi wrote:
...if it turns out to be a good game at a good price, let it turn the dial of your opinion of them one click toward the good... All I'm asking is that if they DO turn over a new leaf and prove it, you notice the ways they're changing for the better.


Fair enough. But it was a week ago they sent out a game without a box.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
that Matt
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
I'm a quitter. I come from a long line of quitters. It's amazing I'm here at all.
badge
I can feel bits of my brain falling away like wet cake.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doctoryes0 wrote:
karishi wrote:
...if it turns out to be a good game at a good price, let it turn the dial of your opinion of them one click toward the good... All I'm asking is that if they DO turn over a new leaf and prove it, you notice the ways they're changing for the better.


Fair enough. But it was a week ago they sent out a game without a box.

That leaf might have been poison ivy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Skelton
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tumorous wrote:
doctoryes0 wrote:
karishi wrote:
...if it turns out to be a good game at a good price, let it turn the dial of your opinion of them one click toward the good... All I'm asking is that if they DO turn over a new leaf and prove it, you notice the ways they're changing for the better.


Fair enough. But it was a week ago they sent out a game without a box.

That leaf might have been poison ivy.


The internet is depressing. Why is it now, for the first time in history, a person/company can't make a mistake (or several) and then make amends and head in a new direction? Why do so many people act like that's an impossible task? Should you blindly trust someone that's made mistakes you've had to suffer for? Of course not. But what's wrong with idea that things can change for the better?

Even if you take people out of the equation, it doesn't make business sense to screw over your customers. Even a person solely obsessed with himself and his wealth will do right by his customers because that's how you make money. So bad things have happened to Game Salute customers in the past, and now they say that things have changed. Dan's character aside (and I'm not so sure any of your accusations are 100% valid), it makes sense that they'd try to turn things around. And a person that you all trust a good deal more than game salute says that they have changed. Shouldn't we give them a chance, albeit cautiously?

Maybe the right answer is to sit this one out, watch it succeed and give Game Salute a point for doing well as Jeremy said. Personally, I'd rather be part of the success, so I'm backing it. But either way we should stop with the baseless, jaded vitriol.

Thank you, Jeremy, for being so patient and humble in this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/28
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
znomorph wrote:
But either way we should stop with the baseless, jaded vitriol.

There is nothing "baseless" about people's complaints with Game Salute.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lee Fisher
United States
Downingtown
PA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cbrua wrote:
znomorph wrote:
But either way we should stop with the baseless, jaded vitriol.

There is nothing "baseless" about people's complaints with Game Salute.


Yeah I'm not especially anti-GS, but wok star is yet another example that they don't seem to want to "make amends and head in a new direction."
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Skelton
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cbrua wrote:
znomorph wrote:
But either way we should stop with the baseless, jaded vitriol.

There is nothing "baseless" about people's complaints with Game Salute.


Ok, so that word was misused. My apologies. I stand by the rest of my comment though .

And to be clear, I have no issues with bringing up grievances. If we never spoke up when these mistakes were made, it's possible (probable) that things would never get fixed. It's the constant berating any time Game Salute gets mentioned that I wish we'd all stop. Yes, they messed up. Yes, other people unfamiliar with their past have a right to know about those mistakes. But as others in this thread have said, that's all that needs to be brought up so the person can make their own decision. If you can't say something nice and all that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel G.
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
To answer the OP, I would wait for retail. I was a original backer for Archfiends and have posted my complaints about the project and why I eventually asked for a refund here Wronged https://boardgamegeek.com/article/19595585#19595585
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
znomorph wrote:
If you can't say something nice and all that.


"If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all," is a philosophy enunciated by Thumper the rabbit in an animated film, in the context of unsolicited criticism of a third party. It's really got less than zero relevance to the question of discussing a commercial vendor and their business practices in a public forum.
17 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.