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Subject: Coalition losing by a nose? rss

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Mark Goadrich
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We had a situation come up in our game last weekend about coalitions and the "by a nose" issue. We scored each player in turn order, with Mark and Laura being in a coalition. Laura scored first, getting 8 votes. Brett scored next, going all the way to 50 votes. Then Mark scored, earning 42 votes, so the coalition now had 50 votes. Finally Matt scored, earning 50 votes. Matt was the last to 50, so he won the election by a nose, but we were not sure who he edged out, the coalition who reached 50 second to last, or Brett, because he had an actual marker at 50?

A related question, suppose there was no Brett in this game, can a coalition lose by a nose like this? The second place loser by a nose should get to place one media marker up on the big board, if that's a coalition, do both player place their markers? Thanks for the clarifications.
 
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Mark Bigney
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Ties are broken by
-Whoever has a marker higher up on the vote track; failing that,
-Whoever has a marker on top.

In this instance, it's pretty clear that Matt wins. Turn order doesn't really matter by the time you're comparing votes (though it matters when converting markers to votes, see criterion #2 above).
Matt won by a nose over Brett. Brett beats the coalition due to criterion #1.

Coalitions who lose by a nose get nothing. A party that loses by a nose to a coalition gets nothing. Of this I am sure.
 
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Paul M
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JeremiahClayton wrote:
A coalition CAN convert more than 50 votes.. but because they are afforded this ability.. in order to win an election against a single party.. the coalition must convert more votes than any single party.


This is not necessarily true if a coalition ties with a single party, and one member of that coalition is a political slacker and has zero votes.

Example - A & B coalition, C is solo. A is on 45, B is on 0 (slacker), and C is on 45. The winner is whoever got to 45 last, which could be the coalition if A got to 45 last.

A rare scenario, but possible nonetheless.
 
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Mark Bigney
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JeremiahClayton wrote:

A coalition CAN convert more than 50 votes.. but because they are afforded this ability.. in order to win an election against a single party.. the coalition must convert more votes than any single party.


We're saying the same thing, here. Ties are broken by whichever party has a marker higher up; if a coalition ties with a single player, that single player would perforce have his/her marker higher up than either party of the coalition (UNLESS that coalition had one member getting exactly zero votes, in which case the tie is broken by whichever marker is on top of the other, i.e. turn order decides). There's no need to introduce a "coalition must exceed" criterion.
Of course, I've only read the 2nd edition rules cursorily; the 3rd edition (the rules with which I am vastly more familiar) might have changed things

JeremiahClayton wrote:

In other words.. had Brett and Matt had markers on 50 and the coalition scored 43 and 8.. the coalition would have won the election (with Matt losing by a nose) even though neither party involved in the coalition had a party marker higher than 43 on the vote track.


I disagree. Matt does not lose by a nose; he loses outright, because the coalition has more votes. You only lose by a nose in a tiebreaker situation.

 
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Mark Bigney
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ipgyst wrote:
JeremiahClayton wrote:
A coalition CAN convert more than 50 votes.. but because they are afforded this ability.. in order to win an election against a single party.. the coalition must convert more votes than any single party.


This is not necessarily true if a coalition ties with a single party, and one member of that coalition is a political slacker and has zero votes.

Example - A & B coalition, C is solo. A is on 45, B is on 0 (slacker), and C is on 45. The winner is whoever got to 45 last, which could be the coalition if A got to 45 last.

A rare scenario, but possible nonetheless.


Exactly my interpretation. You put it far more clearly than I did.
 
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Paul M
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Gyges wrote:

Coalitions who lose by a nose get nothing. A party that loses by a nose to a coalition gets nothing. Of this I am sure.


Did they change this in 3rd ed? Anybody who loses by a nose (coalition or not) may move a media marker, at least in 2nd ed that was the rule.
 
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Paul M
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Gyges wrote:
ipgyst wrote:
JeremiahClayton wrote:
A coalition CAN convert more than 50 votes.. but because they are afforded this ability.. in order to win an election against a single party.. the coalition must convert more votes than any single party.


This is not necessarily true if a coalition ties with a single party, and one member of that coalition is a political slacker and has zero votes.

Example - A & B coalition, C is solo. A is on 45, B is on 0 (slacker), and C is on 45. The winner is whoever got to 45 last, which could be the coalition if A got to 45 last.

A rare scenario, but possible nonetheless.


Exactly my interpretation. You put it far more clearly than I did.


Don't give me too much credit. I just spit out what was in the 2nd ed FAQ.
 
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Mark Bigney
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ipgyst wrote:
Gyges wrote:

Coalitions who lose by a nose get nothing. A party that loses by a nose to a coalition gets nothing. Of this I am sure.


Did they change this in 3rd ed? Anybody who loses by a nose (coalition or not) may move a media marker, at least in 2nd ed that was the rule.


I can't remember how it works in 2nd ed., but the logic in the 3rd ed seems to be that only two parties (max) can place a media marker on the national board per province. If you allow coalitions who "lose by noses" (heh heh) to place markers, you'd have four markers on the national board for a single province. This might be okay in the 2nd ed., it might even be intentional--but it seems kinda iffy to me.
Anyone else know 2nd ed. well enough to comment?
 
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Paul M
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Who wins in a 5p game if everybody has 1 media marker in a region and no votes? Is the slacker who set his pieces up last considered the winner by a nose?
 
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Mark Bigney
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ipgyst wrote:
Who wins in a 5p game if everybody has 1 media marker in a region and no votes? Is the slacker who set his pieces up last considered the winner by a nose?


Wow. Now there's an eventuality I never thought of.
Burn that bridge when you come to it. I'll wager you never will.

ipgyst wrote:
Don't give me too much credit. I just spit out what was in the 2nd ed FAQ.


I shall give credit as I see fit!!
 
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Brett Myers
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JeremiahClayton wrote:
ipgyst wrote:
Who wins in a 5p game if everybody has 1 media marker in a region and no votes? Is the slacker who set his pieces up last considered the winner by a nose?


Provided there are no coalitions.. the last player in turn order wins the election.. because the player will be the last to convert no meeting markers into 0 votes. The second to last player will lose by a nose.


Ah, but in the 3rd ed, you have to have at least 5 votes to gain any seats.
 
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Chris Trimmer
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JeremiahClayton wrote:
Karl-Heinz Schmiel worked with Valley Games on the reprint (what I've heard anyways).. so I assume the changes made in editions.. were ones initiated by the designer.


I thought Schmiel just gave his blessing to changes which to me is quite different from initiating changes.
 
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Brett Myers
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JeremiahClayton wrote:
disclamer wrote:
JeremiahClayton wrote:
ipgyst wrote:
Who wins in a 5p game if everybody has 1 media marker in a region and no votes? Is the slacker who set his pieces up last considered the winner by a nose?


Provided there are no coalitions.. the last player in turn order wins the election.. because the player will be the last to convert no meeting markers into 0 votes. The second to last player will lose by a nose.


Ah, but in the 3rd ed, you have to have at least 5 votes to gain any seats.


True.. but they need not win any seats to place a media marker and a public opinion card on the national board.. so the last player would still benefit from winning the election.. no?


That's the way I read it.
 
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