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Epic Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Breakthrough Clarification rss

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Nathan Gustafson
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When a champion with breakthrough is involved in combat, do you have to assign all of its damage to one other champion, or can you split it between multiple then breakthrough the remaining.

Also, if a champion has been damaged by another source before the damage step, does that decrease the champions life total and contribute to the breakthrough during the damage step?
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Christian Kløve
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See this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1382436/keyword-clarificati...

There is a quote from Rob at the bottom.
 
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Robert Dougherty
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Kløve wrote:
See this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1382436/keyword-clarificati...

There is a quote from Rob at the bottom.


OK, for Breakthrough:
When dealing damage, take the total offense of champions with breakthrough in the attack, subtract the total defense of _all_ blocking champions, you may assign the remainder to the defending player.

For example, if your attack has an 18 offense champion with breakthrough and a 10 offense normal champion, and the blocking group has a 4 defense champion and a 10 defense champion who has already taken 5 damage this turn, you can deal 4 damage to the defending player.

18-(10+4) = 4

The non-breakthrough champion didn't help. The damage already on one of the blockers didn't help. Swords with breakthrough - all shield in block when damage is applied. That is it!
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Wait. Why didn't the "damage already on one of the blockers" help? Did that blocker regain the 5 health?
 
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Donald Peterson
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Bump for Ominus. Why didn't the 5 damage already inflicted on the blocker not count? Furthermore, after applying the damage from the breakthrough champion, why can't the non-breakthrough champion apply damage? This makes no sense...
 
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Brian Rayburn
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If a Breakthrough champion attacks, any defender basically defends with it's full printed Defense stat. If a BT champion doesn't break a defender, a champ in the same attacking group as the BT champ may apply it's damage to help break the defender, but none of that would get through if there was extra, as the second champ did not also have BT. Its kinda screwy, but I think I can deal. Still not 100% sure I have everything about BT down, though.
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Nathan Davis
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Breakthrough damage is a bit complex.

If the damage from your breakthrough champions is greater than the printed value of the defense of all of the blockers, you break all of the blockers*, and the extra damage is dealt to the defender.

If you have breakthrough champions and nonbreakthrough champions attacking at the same time, those nonbreakthrough champions won't help much.

Breakthrough is special. It doesn't look at any other damage from any other source when trying to figure out if it hits through to the defending player.

- Nathan Davis
Studio Manager, WWG
* If a blocker is unbreakable, you won't break it, but you will still try to deal enough damage to it to break it and then you can deal the rest to the defending player...
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Donald Peterson
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Thanks for the reply Nathan. I believe the fancy large-format rulebook needs several examples of this since there seem to be many different interpretations and understandings of how breakthrough is supposed to work. I've read all these threads and answers and think I'm more confused now than I was to begin with...cry
 
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Rob_of_YMG wrote:

The non-breakthrough champion didn't help. The damage already on one of the blockers didn't help. Swords with breakthrough - all shield in block when damage is applied. That is it!


So there is zero reason to attack with a group of both breakthrough and non-breakthrough champions, because the non-breakthrough ones don't even count?
 
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Brian Rayburn
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If the BT champ doesn't break the defender, other champs may apply their attack to the defender in hopes of breaking it.
 
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scarecrowking wrote:
If the BT champ doesn't break the defender, other champs may apply their attack to the defender in hopes of breaking it.


So the only time you mix BT and nonBT is when BT's attack is lower than opponent's defense?
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Brian Rayburn
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So far.
 
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You might also mix in a non-Breakthrough champion if the alternative is sending out your single Breakthrough champion alone, and you think they have Lying In Wait (destroy a champion attacking alone). I imagine lots more reasons will come up in gameplay.
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Cameron McKenzie
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Does breakthrough do anything if no blockers were declared?
 
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If there are no blockers, all attacking champions deal damage directly to their opponent's life, so breakthrough is irrelevant - breakthrough is about being able to hit the opponent despite blockers. The question is a bit like saying, "If there is no kryptonite, does being immune to kryptonite have any effect?"
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Cameron McKenzie
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Well, based on the fact that breakthrough calculation is different than normal combat damage calculation, one could come to the conclusion that an unblocked attack would do normal damage and then additional damage for breakthrough

Just wanted to check that.
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Dave K
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Rob_of_YMG wrote:
Kløve wrote:
See this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1382436/keyword-clarificati...

There is a quote from Rob at the bottom.


OK, for Breakthrough:
When dealing damage, take the total offense of champions with breakthrough in the attack, subtract the total defense of _all_ blocking champions, you may assign the remainder to the defending player.

For example, if your attack has an 18 offense champion with breakthrough and a 10 offense normal champion, and the blocking group has a 4 defense champion and a 10 defense champion who has already taken 5 damage this turn, you can deal 4 damage to the defending player.

18-(10+4) = 4

The non-breakthrough champion didn't help. The damage already on one of the blockers didn't help. Swords with breakthrough - all shield in block when damage is applied. That is it!


Thank you for the example there, that definitely helps. I can easily see MtG veterans mixing that one up since it's quite different from trample.
 
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Joe Oppedisano
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NathanWWG wrote:
Breakthrough damage is a bit complex.

If the damage from your breakthrough champions is greater than the printed value of the defense of all of the blockers, you break all of the blockers*, and the extra damage is dealt to the defender.

If you have breakthrough champions and nonbreakthrough champions attacking at the same time, those nonbreakthrough champions won't help much.

Breakthrough is special. It doesn't look at any other damage from any other source when trying to figure out if it hits through to the defending player.

- Nathan Davis
Studio Manager, WWG
* If a blocker is unbreakable, you won't break it, but you will still try to deal enough damage to it to break it and then you can deal the rest to the defending player...


Just to make sure I get it, it seems that BT damage is calculated before removing any defenders/attackers who may have been broken by normal damage?

So it's:
1. Deal [normal] damage to both players' champions
2. Calculate any BT damage and compare to defenders total defense value to see if any goes through to defending player
3. Remove any broken champions on both sides

Does that seem correct?

 
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Brian Rayburn
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Nope.

1. Deal BT damage. If all defending champs are broken, apply remaining BT damage to player.
2. If defending champs weren't broken, apply remaining damage from non-BT champs to defending champs.
3. Apply defending champ's damage to attacking champs.
4. Remove any champs that were broken.
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Joe Oppedisano
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scarecrowking wrote:
Nope.

1. Deal BT damage. If all defending champs are broken, apply remaining BT damage to player.
2. If defending champs weren't broken, apply remaining damage from non-BT champs to defending champs.
3. Apply defending champ's damage to attacking champs.
4. Remove any champs that were broken.


Wow! Thanks. I never would have gotten that from the rules or most of the threads that talk about BT.

 
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Andrew S
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oppedj02 wrote:
Wow! Thanks. I never would have gotten that from the rules or most of the threads that talk about BT.


Yep, for me this is was the only part of the rules that I did not understand after the first reading. Or second... Or third...
 
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anthony harris
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so please let me know if i have this right.

if i have a non-bt champ and a bt champ prepared. if i attack 'only' with my non-bt champ and i break the defending champ/s. can i then attack during that turn, with my bt champ and pass all damage to the player?
 
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scarecrowking wrote:
Nope.

1. Deal BT damage. If all defending champs are broken, apply remaining BT damage to player.
2. If defending champs weren't broken, apply remaining damage from non-BT champs to defending champs.
3. Apply defending champ's damage to attacking champs.
4. Remove any champs that were broken.


How aren't the two ways of working it out functionally the same? I always explain it the former way, not yours.
 
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Brian Rayburn
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Because the rules say that BT damage is applied first.
 
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Seth Motes
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harrio wrote:
so please let me know if i have this right.

if i have a non-bt champ and a bt champ prepared. if i attack 'only' with my non-bt champ and i break the defending champ/s. can i then attack during that turn, with my bt champ and pass all damage to the player?


It would work that way even if none of your champs had breakthrough. If you're attacking with a breakthrough champ, and they have no champs left to block, you're passing all damage through to face without even needing the breakthrough keyword.
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