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Subject: So, is it official? "Edge of the World" rss

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William Jason Raynovich
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So, is it? Is there an official ruling on this?

If not, anyone who plays or has played in the Major Tournaments can say how it is done in those tournaments? Is there an official amount of play space that is permitted/required/regulated for official play? How do they do it in the World Tournament?

Please, let's not have a back and forth discussion about semantics. I just want to know if there is an official ruling on this. Hunters and Gatherers has the rule. . .. Does this now apply to Carcassonne as well?

Looking forward to knowledgeable responses. We can argue semantics of what "play on the table" means and what it does not. But I really do not care about the semantics. I would love an official ruling.
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Krawhitham B
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I'm not sure how Official this is but it is taken from http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/87531/carcassonne-standard... page 25 (bold added by me for emphasis):

Quote:
Use of a Table
A number of questions have been asked about rules related to the play area itself,
including what happens when the edge of the area is reached, or if a table has to be used
for play. The following clarifications are from Georg Wild from HiG (5/2013):
The edge of the table is the limit for the game if, as stated in the rules, a table is
used.
 The rules state that the starting tile is placed in the middle of the table. If all of the
tiles are shifted to allow more room, the starting tile would no longer be in the
middle. So in principle, total shifting of the tiles is not allowed. Additionally, with a
manual shift of all of the tiles, the tiles and figures on the field can slip, which
could lead to incorrect positioning of tiles or figures.
 Addition of a second table is possible if one of an appropriate height is added to the
first table. If a table is extended (as with an additional panel), make sure that the
tiles and figures on the playing field do not slip.
 Playing on the floor: The rules technically do not allow this, because the rules state
that the first tile is placed in the middle of the table. Playing on the floor is not
forbidden, however, if use of a table is not feasible. If the floor is used, tiles must
be placed so all tiles are visible to all players. Tiles cannot be placed under the
sofa, cabinet/shelf, etc.
It is important generally, that all the players in the round agree how to play:
Table - Standard
Table - with "total shifting" of tiles
Table - with extension
Floor
 Continue to play fairly and not intentionally unfair to other players.
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Chuck Hurd
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Heh, that statement really didn't help. It tried to say the edge of the table is a hard limit, then is said you can add a panel or a table if needed.

I've played in a World Tournament qualifying round and I'm no help. The matter was never addressed in the pregame rules announcement and it never became an issue. I failed to ask then but I would also be interested to know how the World Tournament handles the rule.

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Krawhitham B
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Carcking wrote:
Heh, that statement really didn't help. It tried to say the edge of the table is a hard limit, then is said you can add a panel or a table if needed.

I've played in a World Tournament qualifying round and I'm no help. The matter was never addressed in the pregame rules announcement and it never became an issue. I failed to ask then but I would also be interested to know how the World Tournament handles the rule.



I have added an extra bolded statement to my first reply. Players should agree beforehand. I would say that adding tables mid-game would not be allowed, unless mentioned beforehand but putting multiple tables together before the start of the game would be fine.
 
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Tomello Visello
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raynovich wrote:
So, is it? Is there an official ruling on this?.

All I can think about is ...

This game has a long history of being a low anxiety and pleasant experience. So if this question is the key issue that is hanging you up then I'd say you are indeed playing it wrong.

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William Jason Raynovich
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TVis wrote:
raynovich wrote:
So, is it? Is there an official ruling on this?.

All I can think about is ...

This game has a long history of being a low anxiety and pleasant experience. So if this question is the key issue that is hanging you up then I'd say you are indeed playing it wrong.



It came up in an event I was running. The game can be a stressful game. It actually makes for a very nice, aggressive game. I disagree that we are playing it wrong. Also, I did request official rulings.
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Eric G
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When you say it came up in an event, how did the events happen? Was someone going to play a tile and the only available spot was on the edge of the table?

I have always played buy the idea the table edge is the farthest you can place tiles. My friends and I played this on a small table in a cafe shop and we just stopped when we ran out of room.
 
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William Jason Raynovich
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wolf9545 wrote:
When you say it came up in an event, how did the events happen? Was someone going to play a tile and the only available spot was on the edge of the table?

I have always played buy the idea the table edge is the farthest you can place tiles. My friends and I played this on a small table in a cafe shop and we just stopped when we ran out of room.


I run "friendly" tournament events. I had an event and I just thought it was "known" that the "edge of the table" is not playable. One participant said it is not in the rules. Depending on how one determines "places it on the table" is interpreted. Also, Hunters & Gatherers does specifically state that the edge of the table is the edge of the playable area.

The player who wanted to place a tile laid the tile down. It was half off the board. It was barely stayed on the board. At that point we had played about thirty tiles. I ruled that it was unplayable. I was given grief about it.

I just am surprised that in a game that has some history is a popular game to play online and has, from what I understand, a pretty solid World Championship event has not explicitly stated an official ruling.
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Krawhitham B
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raynovich wrote:
I run "friendly" tournament events. I had an event and I just thought it was "known" that the "edge of the table" is not playable. One participant said it is not in the rules. Depending on how one determines "places it on the table" is interpreted. Also, Hunters & Gatherers does specifically state that the edge of the table is the edge of the playable area.

The player who wanted to place a tile laid the tile down. It was half off the board. It was barely stayed on the board. At that point we had played about thirty tiles. I ruled that it was unplayable. I was given grief about it.


You run the tournament so you get to decide on issues that are not covered in the rulebook. No one likes the referee but you can't have a game without one.

You simply now need to state how you interpret the rule: so are you saying that 100% of the tile must be on the table surface? Just decide which way you will go and ensure everyone knows.

I suggest that you give yourself a "my decisions are final" kind of rule.
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Tomello Visello
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raynovich wrote:
Hunters and Gatherers has the rule. . ..

coming back to read more replies here I am also wondering what your source is regarding H&G so specifically. For all your concern about "official", this is a pretty casual assertion.

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William Jason Raynovich
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TVis wrote:
raynovich wrote:
Hunters and Gatherers has the rule. . ..

coming back to read more replies here I am also wondering what your source is regarding H&G so specifically. For all your concern about "official", this is a pretty casual assertion.



In the rules of Hunters and Gatherers, it clearly states that the edge of the table is the end of the playing area. Under Drawing and placing land times:

The player must place the new land tile with or more of its sides adjacent to a previously placed land tile. He may not place the land tile so it touches previously placed tiles only corner to corner. The edge of the table limits the playing area. . .. .


This is pretty explicit. Why you want to counter this so much Tomello fascinates me. Look, while playing the game in a friendly environment do what you want. When playing competitively what is the answer. That is all I am looking for. I am surprised this is not officially answered by Hans im Gluck or someone else. That is all.

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brian
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raynovich wrote:
TVis wrote:
raynovich wrote:
Hunters and Gatherers has the rule. . ..

coming back to read more replies here I am also wondering what your source is regarding H&G so specifically. For all your concern about "official", this is a pretty casual assertion.



In the rules of Hunters and Gatherers, it clearly states that the edge of the table is the end of the playing area. Under Drawing and placing land times:

The player must place the new land tile with or more of its sides adjacent to a previously placed land tile. He may not place the land tile so it touches previously placed tiles only corner to corner. The edge of the table limits the playing area. . .. .


This is pretty explicit. Why you want to counter this so much Tomello fascinates me. Look, while playing the game in a friendly environment do what you want. When playing competitively what is the answer. That is all I am looking for. I am surprised this is not officially answered by Hans im Gluck or someone else. That is all.


Actually, it only states this in the RGG version of the rules. The Z-Man version does NOT state this and so it could be argued that with Z-Man being the newer version, it is the more correct version. So while explicit in one, the lack of it in another puts the whole official stance in question.
 
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Tomello Visello
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raynovich wrote:
TVis wrote:
raynovich wrote:
Hunters and Gatherers has the rule. . ..

coming back to read more replies here I am also wondering what your source is regarding H&G so specifically. For all your concern about "official", this is a pretty casual assertion.



In the rules of Hunters and Gatherers, it clearly states that the edge of the table is the end of the playing area. Under Drawing and placing land times:

The player must place the new land tile with or more of its sides adjacent to a previously placed land tile. He may not place the land tile so it touches previously placed tiles only corner to corner. The edge of the table limits the playing area. . .. .

Ahh.OK then.

Before my earlier posting I consulted the rules as published with the new source, Z-Man Games. The precision you state does not exist there.

The same section now says more simply,

1. Placing a Land tile
A player must first draw a Land tile from one of the facedown piles. She may show it to all players (who may advise her of good placement opportunities), and then place it according to the following rules:
*The newly placed tile (red-bordered in the examples below) must be placed adjacent to at least one existing tile. Diagonal adjacency is not sufficient.
• Meadows, rivers, and forests must continue from this newly placed tile to existing adjacent tiles.


Given your latest response I did search for the older Rio Grande Games rules and do find a match as you present.

With the difference between those two passages in mind I would have to say that what you presently rely upon as "official" has not been very enduring, although that does not make it wrong.

 
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Tomello Visello
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raynovich wrote:
This is pretty explicit. Why you want to counter this so much Tomello fascinates me. Look, while playing the game in a friendly environment do what you want. When playing competitively what is the answer. That is all I am looking for. I am surprised this is not officially answered by Hans im Gluck or someone else. That is all.

Very plainly, I see the issue as the same as arguing over the concept of hidden vs visible trackable information, such as a player's money: the only true answer is that it merely follows whatever the participating players agree upon.

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Chuck Hurd
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You will likely not get Hans im Gluck to declare either way. Even their "official" answer was duplicitous. They do not conduct, or sanction as far as I'm aware, the competitive tournaments - so do not presume to have such jurisdiction.

It would be for each competitive body to declare the rule intended at the start of any competition. As such, every competition could be different.

Note that they also do not dictate the "official" size of the playing area. It is open to taste and interpretation.

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William Jason Raynovich
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Carcking wrote:
You will likely not get Hans im Gluck to declare either way. Even their "official" answer was duplicitous. They do not conduct, or sanction as far as I'm aware, the competitive tournaments - so do not presume to have such jurisdiction.

It would be for each competitive body to declare the rule intended at the start of any competition. As such, every competition could be different.

Note that they also do not dictate the "official" size of the playing area. It is open to taste and interpretation.



Cool. So, when they do the face to face 2-player championships, does everyone play on the same table? Did they have an "official" answer. I did not see one. Could you point me to the direction of that statement?

And yes, every event could be different. House rules are not unheard of.

The game really is, in my opinion, great which is why in part I am asking.
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William Jason Raynovich
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TVis wrote:
raynovich wrote:
This is pretty explicit. Why you want to counter this so much Tomello fascinates me. Look, while playing the game in a friendly environment do what you want. When playing competitively what is the answer. That is all I am looking for. I am surprised this is not officially answered by Hans im Gluck or someone else. That is all.

Very plainly, I see the issue as the same as arguing over the concept of hidden vs visible trackable information, such as a player's money: the only true answer is that it merely follows whatever the participating players agree upon.



Except when you are in a competitive environment and one of the participants states in a declamatory manner, "Show me where it says it in the rules."
 
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Tomello Visello
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raynovich wrote:
Except when you are in a competitive environment and one of the participants states in a declamatory manner, "Show me where it says it in the rules." :)

Show him the rules he signed up for in this particular tournament. Which might include "... and other at the organizer's discretion."

 
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Chuck Hurd
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raynovich wrote:
...Did they have an "official" answer. I did not see one. Could you point me to the direction of that statement?

The closest we have to an official answer is on page 25 of the CAR v7.4 (and is referenced above by Krawhitham)...taken from an excerpt of an interview with George Wild from HiG.
He is almost always ambivalent with such answers, preferring to default to the tenet that all players should be in agreement and play to have fun.


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Tomello Visello
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Carcking wrote:

He is almost always ambivalent with such answers,

I think maybe, ambiguous.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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TVis wrote:
Carcking wrote:

He is almost always ambivalent with such answers,

I think maybe, ambiguous.

Heh, ambivalence breeds ambiguity
 
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Krawhitham B
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TVis wrote:
Carcking wrote:

He is almost always ambivalent with such answers,

I think maybe, ambiguous.


I'm pretty sure he meant ambivalent, when you read Carking's full statement.

The document I linked to in my first reply documents a truck load of House Rules, along with the actual rules. The attitude seems to be "these are the rules, but if you want to play differently then go for it (as long as you tell people)".

I think that is a healthy attitude from a publisher: you paid for it so who am I to say what you must do.

They don't organise "Official" tournaments, so why not let those who do organise events decide?
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Tomello Visello
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I saw it more as "on the other hand" hedging, so I chose ambuguity aimed toward hoping to satisfy anyone. But on this smaller question I myself am ambivalent.

 
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Stefano Assogna
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I don't know if this has ever been brought up: If the edge of the table is the edge of the World, does that mean that a tile with at least one side that is too close to the table edge for a new tile to reasonably fit next to it is "closed" on that side? I mean with regards to feature completion? In other words if for example I have a road starting form let's say a cloister several tiles furhter in the table and leading to an open side (like in a tile with just a straight road segment and farm -- green -- on both sides) of a tile basically bordering with the table, would that road be complete? As if the "no lay zone" determined by not enough room on the table were a city wall or something? Man, I hope that was clear :what:
 
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Andy Burgess
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No, features are only completed if a tile completes them. You can't complete anything by touching the edge of the play area.
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