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Subject: Final Pre-Kick Starter Card Preview rss

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Val Doonican
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I like the look of the game, but I do think the art is "naff". I play a lot of LOTR LCG with my two sons, and my daughter of 6 is showing an interest (she likes Glaadriel). This art represent exactly the sort of representation of women I would hope she would reel against it - so you may get a purchase from me so we can laugh at the lazy, misogynistic view of women. Surely there is a better image available of a female warrior, that does not kowtow to outdated "fantasy" design? I doubt you would lose many sales, and it wont stop me buying if the game in general looks good, but that particular type of art would be nicely ridiculed in our house, and is a point "against" backing.
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Tristan Hall
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anto wrote:
FWIW, voted no, please look at Andor or Barony for (better IMHO) examples regarding this topic.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/956376/female-characters-or...

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1351316/will-there-be-femal...

Good luck wih your game!
Thanks for your thoughts and for those links Antonello, I haven't played either of those games.


ScottE wrote:
Nice art, thanks for showing it. Looking forward to checking out the game.

Tristan, don't be too concerned about the poll results. BGG tends to be a bit over sensitive.
Thanks Scott, no dramas - it's good to have a natter either way!
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ValDoonican wrote:
I like the look of the game, but I do think the art is "naff". I play a lot of LOTR LCG with my two sons, and my daughter of 6 is showing an interest (she likes Glaadriel). This art represent exactly the sort of representation of women I would hope she would reel against it - so you may get a purchase from me so we can laugh at the lazy, misogynistic view of women. Surely there is a better image available of a female warrior, that does not kowtow to outdated "fantasy" design? I doubt you would lose many sales, and it wont stop me buying if the game in general looks good, but that particular type of art would be nicely ridiculed in our house, and is a point "against" backing.
Thanks Val.
I'll be impressed if your 6 year old can play Fantasy Quest! wow
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Markus Weihrauch
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I understand that many of us are playing (or trying to play) their games with their kids (same here with my 6-year-old). I also understand that we don't want to expose our kids to unappropriate content (whatever this is and this seems to differ between cultures).

But I definitely don't this game (or similar games) to end up with artwork from Michael Menzel or something similar to Imperial Settlers. This game is clearly not designed to be a happy family game, so personally I want to see it with all fantasy cliches that are around and if this means I cannot play it with my son, so be it... I have dozens of other games (Legendary etc.) he is happy to play with me.

I can understand if women gamers might feel offended by artwork like this but on the other hand shows like "Game of Thrones" are full of those cliches as well and seem to be pretty popular... whistle

Now stone me to death...
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Kim Williams
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ninjadorg wrote:

entwife wrote:
Yup, the poll is a false dichotomy.

Surely if there was really the intention of judging strength of feeling about the card there'd also be a third option of something like:

"I'd rather the art on this card was changed - although I'm still interested in the game with the existing art"


I appreciate that there could be as many opinion-based permutations to this poll as there are people on the internet but it’s just a simple question about the art really: yay or nay. I doubt it would stop the game from being produced or anything.
Imagine there’s a gun to your head and you have to choose one option – now go!
Or don’t - it’s just a poll.
The problem I have with the poll is that it seems to me to imply something like "I'm only interested in your opinion of this art if you dislike it so much that it would deprive me of a sale"

Surely it's just as relevant, if not even more relevant, to know about people who really like the idea of the game so much that they will buy it despite the art - but who would really much prefer it was changed (maybe so they could feel comfortable playing with their daughter/ wife etc.)

Edit: Just to note the quality of the art is fantastic, and I do feel fine with all the other depictions of females which I've seen - this one is just a step too seedy for me.
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Tristan Hall
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JoystickZ wrote:
I understand that many of us are playing (or trying to play) their games with their kids (same here with my 6-year-old). I also understand that we don't want to expose our kids to unappropriate content (whatever this is and this seems to differ between cultures).

But I definitely don't this game (or similar games) to end up with artwork from Michael Menzel or something similar to Imperial Settlers.
Well I can assure you that, whilst I appreciate that style of art (I own a signed copy of Imperial Settlers), it will not be appearing in Fantasy Quest.
I also wouldn’t play FQ with my 5 year old, mainly because of its complexity.



entwife wrote:
The problem I have with the poll is that it seems to me to imply something like "I'm only interested in your opinion of this art if you dislike it so much that it would deprive me of a sale"

Surely it's just as relevant, if not even more relevant, to know about people who really like the idea of the game so much that they will buy it despite the art - but who would really much prefer it was changed (maybe so they could feel comfortable playing with their daughter/ wife etc.)
We’re over-complicating a simple question here - let’s blame my original wording.
If you like the art click yes, if you don’t click no.
Simples.
I’m just canvassing opinions on the art - I’m not going to shut down the game because you clicked no.

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Josephine Lancaster
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Another 2 coppers...

When I saw the picture I was mainly disappointed, in a "Surely we have started to move beyond this?" kind of way. Not a raging burn-the-misogonyist kind of way. Not a ban-the-game-and-hide-your-children kind of way. Just a tired "Really? Lingerie warrior?".

It seems unecessary. Descent 2, Mistfall, Barony, Andor and even the latest Zombicide (who'd have thought you'd get sensible women from CMoN!) and probably many others I can't remember at the moment, all seem to manage to have good fantasy games with sensibly portrayed women without anyone complaining about it not being "fantasy enough".

The artist is clearly very good, just imagine the kickass greatness if this was applied to women characters that were not just lingerie models posing with swords. Missed opportunity, really.
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Nick Hughes
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jaderaven wrote:

It seems unecessary. Descent 2, Mistfall, Barony, Andor and even the latest Zombicide (who'd have thought you'd get sensible women from CMoN!)
I take it we're ignoring the howls of indignation over the Paolo Parente guest box when adding Zombicide S3 to that list
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Josephine Lancaster
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jokeroz wrote:
jaderaven wrote:

It seems unecessary. Descent 2, Mistfall, Barony, Andor and even the latest Zombicide (who'd have thought you'd get sensible women from CMoN!)
I take it we're ignoring the howls of indignation over the Paolo Parente guest box when adding Zombicide S3 to that list
Naw, I merely forgot to clarify that I meant the base game+expansion and not the guest boxes
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Joline
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Hmm I don't do kickstarter, so if you want you can just ignore my opinion (for that reason I'll not put it in the poll, but utter it here).

I would see this as a minus to the game. I'm really, really fond of fantasy (games), so this won't mean I wouldn't buy it, but as some others expressed before me, I would see it as a missed chance.

Maybe if all the currently showing (stomach/chest)skin was in a hard-leather (different color) or metal piece (which could still have a low neckline and the current leathers could still be there to show the curves that are a clear goal for this kind of dress), that it would look nicer to me. It's, for a warrior, more realistic that she's covered in some kind of armor than just being naked.
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Tristan Hall
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jaderaven wrote:
When I saw the picture I was mainly disappointed, in a "Surely we have started to move beyond this?" kind of way. Not a raging burn-the-misogonyist kind of way. Not a ban-the-game-and-hide-your-children kind of way. Just a tired "Really? Lingerie warrior?".

It seems unecessary. Descent 2, Mistfall, Barony, Andor and even the latest Zombicide (who'd have thought you'd get sensible women from CMoN!) and probably many others I can't remember at the moment, all seem to manage to have good fantasy games with sensibly portrayed women without anyone complaining about it not being "fantasy enough".

The artist is clearly very good, just imagine the kickass greatness if this was applied to women characters that were not just lingerie models posing with swords. Missed opportunity, really.
Thanks for your input Josephine.
Of those games I’ve only played Descent 2, but I’m delighted to say I strongly favour the art for Fantasy Quest over any of those titles. It’s been a fascinating discussion so far about this single card, so it will be interesting to see what people think when more art gets revealed during the KS campaign. And we have over 200 cards to illustrate! wow



jokeroz wrote:
I take it we're ignoring the howls of indignation over the Paolo Parente guest box when adding Zombicide S3 to that list

jaderaven wrote:
Naw, I merely forgot to clarify that I meant the base game+expansion and not the guest boxes
Ah, crucial distinction – noted.



mebririth wrote:
Hmm I don't do kickstarter, so if you want you can just ignore my opinion (for that reason I'll not put it in the poll, but utter it here).
Thanks for your thoughts Joline, and feel free to vote anyway.
Sadly, without Kick Starter this game will not see the light of day - so if you object to KS there’s an unassailable issue here.
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Nat
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This card would absolutely stop me from buying the game. I wouldn't not back simply because the card is included but if this is used as an example of the tone of the artwork I wouldn't even get to the game play before my eye rolling would make me leave the page. There are enough awesome games that I don't have to support lazy depictions of women, no matter how pretty is it. There's no problem with sexy if it makes sense. If I'm not your target audience then cool. As long as you are aware that the artwork is a barrier to accessibility then best of luck to you. You likely don't need my disposable income and that of the other people who have outgrown this sort of thing.
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Nat
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That wasn't meant to be as catty as it probably reads. But yeah, really well done art but a thematic turnoff for me.
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Scott Everts
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ninjadorg wrote:
ScottE wrote:
Nice art, thanks for showing it. Looking forward to checking out the game.

Tristan, don't be too concerned about the poll results. BGG tends to be a bit over sensitive.
Thanks Scott, no dramas - it's good to have a natter either way!
Glad you are so positive about all this.

BGG tends to get overly dramatic about anything even remotely non-PC. From what I've seen, most people don't really care. So just wanted you to understand that BGG isn't a good indication of the general gaming public.
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Giovanni
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Regardless if you like the art or not, I think we should all appreciate that Tristan is even having this conversation. That's one of the reasons that I'll support his product, because he honestly appears open to the ideas and feedback of the community.

I've seen far too many people with a big ego to even consider what someone else thinks. So Kudos to Tristan for listening!
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Tristan Hall
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GnatOfPower wrote:
That wasn't meant to be as catty as it probably reads. But yeah, really well done art but a thematic turnoff for me.
Thanks for your input Nat. thumbsup


ScottE wrote:

Glad you are so positive about all this.
Haha, cheers Scott - how can I not be positive? Folks are chatting about my game. If the poll does go against this one card then I'm potentially out of pocket on a great piece of art which I could maybe use in another game and them's the breaks. Imagine if all these nice people who've joined in the discussion in the last 24 hours or so back the Kick Starter - that's great news for the game, right?



truthd wrote:
Regardless if you like the art or not, I think we should all appreciate that Tristan is even having this conversation. That's one of the reasons that I'll support his product, because he honestly appears open to the ideas and feedback of the community.

I've seen far too many people with a big ego to even consider what someone else thinks. So Kudos to Tristan for listening!
That's very decent of you to say Giovanni, thank you.
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Timothy 'Peachy' Devery
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I'm likely echoing many here, but here's my take: No, such art wouldn't prevent my purchase of the game. It's not that close to pornagraphic material.

As awesome as it would be to have most games suddenly have progressive and sexually equal art, it's not a thing that will happen any time soon, or ever. Especially in regards to fantasy done by anyone who grew up with fantasy. Sexy ladies and pumped up men are what fantasy has been for ages. And every time there's a step forward (say, Lightning from FFXIII in an outfit that can at least somewhat resemble practicality) there's almost immediately a step back (that same Lightning suddenly becoming a dress-me-up-like-one-of-your-French-girls character in her third sequel).

The artist has great talent, undeniably, and the warrior is a hot piece of fantasy action. That said, I prefer my warriors less sultry and more stabby. If she was slicing the head off an orc in that attire on a dry landscape? I'd be sold. I like it as a piece, even a gaming one.

One curious thing, though: Knowing there's a male version of the Warrior, is he just as sultry, pouting toward the camera while emptying his water flask on his bare chest? Or more stern, armoured, and ready to take some tokens from slain enemies?

Regardless, this is a game I'm verily looking forward to.
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Kim Williams
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ninjadorg wrote:
If the poll does go against this one card then I'm potentially out of pocket on a great piece of art which I could maybe use in another game and them's the breaks.
It would seem a shame not to use the art for this game even if the poll showed there was a potential problem.

Couldn't the original artist be asked to 'touch it up' in a way similar to Joline described above - keeping the criss-crossed silver part but placing something tight-fitted (and even low-necked) but different coloured behind (like some soft, body hugging, leather).

Surely that would be cheaper than having to commission a whole new piece, and wouldn't effect your avatar at all

E.g a much better version than this ( a one minute play on my dying computer, using a terribly basic art package):

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Tristan Hall
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Blossercubbles wrote:

Regardless, this is a game I'm verily looking forward to.
Thanks for all your input Timothy, me too!



entwife wrote:

Couldn't the original artist be asked to 'touch it up' in a way similar to Joline described above - keeping the criss-crossed silver part but placing something tight-fitted (and even low-necked) but different coloured behind (like some soft, body hugging, leather).

Surely that would be cheaper than having to commission a whole new piece, and wouldn't effect your avatar at all
This is a very sensible suggestion, Kim! I’ll have a word with Anna once she’s done with the next batch of art.
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Scott Everts
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ninjadorg wrote:
entwife wrote:

Couldn't the original artist be asked to 'touch it up' in a way similar to Joline described above - keeping the criss-crossed silver part but placing something tight-fitted (and even low-necked) but different coloured behind (like some soft, body hugging, leather).

Surely that would be cheaper than having to commission a whole new piece, and wouldn't effect your avatar at all
This is a very sensible suggestion, Kim! I’ll have a word with Anna once she’s done with the next batch of art.
Should we start a poll on not buying if the art is censored?

I kid, I kid!
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Tristan Hall
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ScottE wrote:

Should we start a poll on not buying if the art is censored?

I kid, I kid!

I know you're only messing Scott, but there's a serious point in there that we've touched on in the other one player guild thread too - am I going to have to continually censor my artists on this project, and for which audience? Will the people who don't approve of this piece also find male barbarians, demons, devils, or hell pits distasteful? If the main objection is the thematic one - i.e. people thinking the warrior is not dressed well for battle - will they be content with the art for the nymph, or for non-battling characters in different attire?

As I said over there:

Quote:
this is just one card out of 5 revealed so far, from over 250 in the game - do people actually want dark gothic fantasy or something else entirely? Over the past 8 years I've taken every criticism of the game very seriously, and I continue to do so.
I've had messages from people who won't back the game for various reasons: because of the title, because of a font choice, because of an icon I used on the cards... Eventually I just have to forge ahead to produce the best game I possibly can, which also means not being able to please everyone at the same time whichever path I choose. But the poll and this dialogue has really helped establish a forum for expectations from gamers, and I'd like to genuinely thank everyone who has contributed to that so far.
At any rate, changing this piece is something we're happily considering - we've even touched on potentially offering alternative art packages for those who want them - but we have so much other content to produce and reveal first, and we still have to determine realistic expectations of whether or not the game will even fund, that this is something to revisit later. FYI the poll runs until end of August, peeps, and we're hopefully hitting 'Go' on the KS in September.

Of course if anyone has any questions about the actual game, please by all means, fire away!

And if you happen to be on Facebook please throw us a Like...
https://www.facebook.com/gloomofkilforth
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Scott Everts
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You make a good point Tristan. It used to be a publisher would make a game and release it and potential buyers decided if they found it desirable to purchase or not. Now with Kickstarter and buyers funding a game before it's done creates a whole new set of issues to deal with. With so many voices giving their opinion and so many different value systems how do you appease all those people?

You are asking for people to participate and give their opinions but at the end of the day it is your game and you have to do what you feel is the right decision for you. You are the designer and publisher. Now some people won't agree and they'll back out. And that's ok. You hope that enough people will stay to share your vision. But it is YOUR vision. You make changes you are comfortable with but be careful not to be swayed by a few. Some people are very noisy. They will post on every social media link you have and push you hard.

I guess do what you are doing, listen, but think critically. Get good ideas from a variety of sources but take care to make sure they are valid and what you want your game to be.

We just finished a successful KS recently and it was a huge learning experience. We listened and we got some great ideas and some not so great, but we listened and discussed privately. We tried not to panic and make rash changes. It's easy to do on KS since you get slammed with opinions and ideas fast.

If you want to make a game that is themed more to adults with demons, monsters, shirtless barbarians, etc. Then make that game and those that are interested in it will back it. But take care not to sanitize your game so it becomes so generic that all the life has been drained out of it. We see that a bit now with publishers taking a more cartoony direction with their games to play it safe. KS is there to allow people to make the game they want to make without worrying about mass market values. There's no way to please everyone. And as I've found out myself, self publishing is a very time consuming and expensive activity so you don't want to do something that you aren't happy with.

I guess that was longer then I planned but have recent experience so thought I'd put in my 2 cents.
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ninjadorg wrote:
ScottE wrote:

Should we start a poll on not buying if the art is censored?

I kid, I kid!

I know you're only messing Scott, but there's a serious point in there that we've touched on in the other one player guild thread too - am I going to have to continually censor my artists on this project, and for which audience? Will the people who don't approve of this piece also find male barbarians, demons, devils, or hell pits distasteful? If the main objection is the thematic one - i.e. people thinking the warrior is not dressed well for battle - will they be content with the art for the nymph, or for non-battling characters in different attire?

As I said over there:

Quote:
this is just one card out of 5 revealed so far, from over 250 in the game - do people actually want dark gothic fantasy or something else entirely? Over the past 8 years I've taken every criticism of the game very seriously, and I continue to do so.
I've had messages from people who won't back the game for various reasons: because of the title, because of a font choice, because of an icon I used on the cards... Eventually I just have to forge ahead to produce the best game I possibly can, which also means not being able to please everyone at the same time whichever path I choose. But the poll and this dialogue has really helped establish a forum for expectations from gamers, and I'd like to genuinely thank everyone who has contributed to that so far.
At any rate, changing this piece is something we're happily considering - we've even touched on potentially offering alternative art packages for those who want them - but we have so much other content to produce and reveal first, and we still have to determine realistic expectations of whether or not the game will even fund, that this is something to revisit later. FYI the poll runs until end of August, peeps, and we're hopefully hitting 'Go' on the KS in September.

Of course if anyone has any questions about the actual game, please by all means, fire away!

And if you happen to be on Facebook please throw us a Like...
https://www.facebook.com/gloomofkilforth
Tristan,

I have a great deal of sympathy for your dilemma (you cannot please all the people all the time) and admire greatly your approach of treating all commenters with courtesy and respect. Kudos to you for that no matter what you decide to do with the art!!


That said, assuming you do need to triage opinions into categories which include trying to estimate the magnitude of potential impact for going one way or another in terms of sales and reviews on each of these issues, I am going toss in an observation I have made over the past 10 years or so as data.

As I said upstream, honestly I don't really get as spun up as many others about the topic of women's portrayal in geeky hobby venues (Comics, games, fantasy art etc). However what used to be very much a mostly "boys club" in terms of target audience has seen a major growth in the openly and proudly declaring we buy and enjoy this stuff too, pool of females. Some has been a legitimate new growth in interest with-in the younger generations, but also a large part is just women who are openly declaring that we have always been a part of these hobbies and darn it WE want to get to feel included and even welcomed as well!!

The good news is that this has increased greatly the market for these types of products in general. But at the same time, much of this expanded market (both female AND male) has realized that it doesn't have to live with just what is offered while wistfully wishing for some changes. They have realized that the market is big enough now to support multiple choices, traditional fare AND newer fare which they find more appealing. And that inputting comments before production and then voting with dollars afterwards is one of the best ways to assure some of the things they find appealing will get produced.

The down side for some productions is that some people who 15 years ago would have just rolled their eyes, held their nose and bought a product anyway, even with a ubiquitous and annoying to them portrayal of women as part of the package, now simply won't do that. Even if they really LOVE the rest of the product, game play, theme, etc., they feel their money is better spent helping support projects they find more responsive to an issue they think is genuinely important, a more honestly empowering representation of women within the hobby.

I could link you to dozens of very heated threads just here on BGG over the last decade dealing with this topic. That is even before you get out into the articles, reviews and blogging spheres which have tackled it. In short, it is an issue that is currently hot enough that many people are willing to take strong ideological stands on it, in both directions and use their pocketbooks to back those stands up.

As I said before your artist is fantastic. And I certainly wouldn't pass on your game over one card, especially one as beautifully done as that one. However the question is... how many females are in the game and are the others going to be drawn in a similarly scantily (and unrealistic to the role) dressed and exaggerated/highly sexualized fashion? Because in the current market a LOT of people will intentionally pass on your game if the majority of females are portrayed similarly.

This is a very contentious battleground issue right now and a lot of people are very vested in the outcome. I would hate to see your game get needlessly flamed or become collateral damage by accident.

I hope that with 250 plus cards you have enough female characters available to offer both a nod to the classical/traditional fantasy art genre AND also to have some kick ass realistically clad fighting women portrayed.

whistle
Since traditionally Nymphs are by nature highly sexual magical creatures (aka no armor needed or appropriate), and you say they are going to be in the game, if it were me, I might choose to use them to be my nod to traditional fantasy art rather than a Warrior Woman fighting with swords. Just Sayin...

But anyway... hope this post is helpful to you.


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Nat
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Wonderfully put, Lynette.
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Daniel Drickman
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Another thing to remember is that we are in an increasingly competitive market. There are so many quality games being made and released. With a sizable collection and with the number of quality games, someone like me has to be selective in what they purchase. A game has to make an impression (and a good one) for me to consider getting it.

If I just saw this game randomly on kickstarter with that card with it's art up front and center, I'd likely just move on to looking at something else. Now, is that fair? Perhaps not, but again, there are sooo many games being made, unless someone has unlimited time to thoroughly research every game, that's how things go. Now, if it was a game that otherwise wowed me, I wouldn't not buy it just because of the art, but it hurts the impression.

On the other hand, a game that I recently kickstarted was Mistfall. I am not comparing gameplay. but they both have fantasy adventure type themes. That game also has beautiful art, but represents the characters in such a thematically appropriate way. That helped the initial impression and I looked more into it and it sounded like a great game.
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