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Subject: Final Pre-Kick Starter Card Preview rss

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Scott Everts
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ninjadorg wrote:
Mugen_Infinity8 wrote:
I was a hair reluctant on the art change but only because I'm stubborn lol and that surely has gone to pass. It looks wonderful and in dark fantasy I think you need a little busty relief from a long day of defending the realm from gloom, needless to say a tall glass of ale to boot!

Keep it up Tristan, you're one of a kind!

Haha, thanks Dave!
One mooted potential option is to offer this image as an alternative art - non-gameplay - card add on for those who like it, rather than forcing it on those who would rather back the game without it. Not sure yet of the logistics of that, or if there's even enough/any demand for something like that though, but we can gauge things like this with backers once the campaign is underway. Could be a please everyone solution, or it could offend everyone too!
You could do what Hobby World did with their English edition of Berserk: War of the Realms. They had a few cards with topless art and being a Russian publisher they didn't realize Americans were going to freak out so much. At first they were going to censor the cards but that angered people that wanted the original art. So they printed 2 sets of each card and gave the players the choice of which to use in their games. There were only 3 or 4 cards that had censored variants.

I think that was sensible considering the US gamers are a significant number of potential buyers. Not that I think you really need to change the art but that's an option. Of course, where do you draw the line? If a female character isn't covered head to toe in non-form fitting clothes, should all those have censored versions? You can have your artist paint a bunch of random females in baggy sack cloth peasant clothes and a second set of the actually nice looking ones!
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I have to admit, I think I prefer Entwife's edited version of the card. I think it's the splash of colour in a mostly brown card & it contrasts well with the straps going across her chest.
Not that the use of the original art is in any way going to stop me backing this of course
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ScottE wrote:
If a female character isn't covered head to toe in non-form fitting clothes, should all those have censored versions? You can have your artist paint a bunch of random females in baggy sack cloth peasant clothes and a second set of the actually nice looking ones!
The point is not to avoid form-fitting clothes, it is to move away from cosplay's frippery to more thematically reasonable fantasy art. I also prefer Entwife's changes, even though it didn't create the baggy sack cloth effect that absolutely no one is clamoring for. There's no functional or thematic reason why the art for the middle part of the outfit should be skin, instead of tunic, outside of tradition, which is a stupid reason to be doing anything.

Edit: Punctuation saves lives.
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EventHorizon wrote:
ScottE wrote:
If a female character isn't covered head to toe in non-form fitting clothes, should all those have censored versions? You can have your artist paint a bunch of random females in baggy sack cloth peasant clothes and a second set of the actually nice looking ones!
The point is not to avoid form-fitting clothes, it is to move away from cosplay's frippery to more thematically reasonable fantasy art. I also prefer Entwife's changes, even though it didn't create the baggy sack cloth effect that absolutely no one is clamoring for. There's no functional or thematic reason why the art for the middle part of the outfit should be skin, instead of tunic, outside of tradition, which is a stupid reason to be doing anything.

Edit: Punctuation saves lives.
I was being silly about the sack cloth though I've seen some really silly complaints sometimes. Like too short of skirt, or too much leg, too much butt, etc. With so many different values on what is appropriate, how can you really know where to draw the line? You want your art to be attractive and exciting. We all know that sex and violence sells, so you need to figure out how far you can go. Though funny that violence gets no worries at all, but show a side boob, and BOOM, you got complaints!

I've worked on a lot of video games with various levels of violence and sexy. Generally no one cared though we did work on a series of games that originally had no issues with the license holder, but at one point they had a regime change and sexy was all of sudden a no-go. Our last game with them was heavily changed after anything even remotely sexy was required to be removed. The cover went through a ton of revisions and I never thought the original was out of line at all. But they had a mandate and were forcing us to follow it. Though I noticed later they weren't following their own rules on their own product! And that last game sold like crap! laugh

I have to admit its been fun debating about this stuff. It's been surprisingly civil considering we've hit 4 pages.
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ScottE wrote:

You could do what Hobby World did with their English edition of Berserk: War of the Realms. They had a few cards with topless art and being a Russian publisher they didn't realize Americans were going to freak out so much. At first they were going to censor the cards but that angered people that wanted the original art. So they printed 2 sets of each card and gave the players the choice of which to use in their games. There were only 3 or 4 cards that had censored variants.

I think that was sensible considering the US gamers are a significant number of potential buyers. Not that I think you really need to change the art but that's an option. Of course, where do you draw the line? If a female character isn't covered head to toe in non-form fitting clothes, should all those have censored versions? You can have your artist paint a bunch of random females in baggy sack cloth peasant clothes and a second set of the actually nice looking ones!
That's a great suggestion, offering both versions so people can just throw out the ones they don't like. The current budget is pretty tight so far (though it might not seem it - I'd like the pledge levels to be smaller) and can't really stretch to this yet, but if we overfund I'll definitely consider it. Otherwise it's gonna be just the current version or another censored version instead, probably censored tbh.


Toc13 wrote:
I have to admit, I think I prefer Entwife's edited version of the card. I think it's the splash of colour in a mostly brown card & it contrasts well with the straps going across her chest.
Not that the use of the original art is in any way going to stop me backing this of course
Cheers Chris, great to know you're in either way, especially given how instrumental you've been in its development!



EventHorizon wrote:

The point is not to avoid form-fitting clothes, it is to move away from cosplay's frippery to more thematically reasonable fantasy art. I also prefer Entwife's changes, even though it didn't create the baggy sack cloth effect that absolutely no one is clamoring for. There's no functional or thematic reason why the art for the middle part of the outfit should be skin, instead of tunic, outside of tradition, which is a stupid reason to be doing anything.

Edit: Punctuation saves lives.
Thanks for your thoughts J.
'Thematic' has definitely been a key part of the design process, but I'm not as sure about 'functional' - it probably doesn't suit the barbarian's loin-cloth or the Reaper's scythe for example.



ScottE wrote:

I was being silly about the sack cloth though I've seen some really silly complaints sometimes. Like too short of skirt, or too much leg, too much butt, etc. With so many different values on what is appropriate, how can you really know where to draw the line? You want your art to be attractive and exciting. We all know that sex and violence sells, so you need to figure out how far you can go. Though funny that violence gets no worries at all, but show a side boob, and BOOM, you got complaints!

I've worked on a lot of video games with various levels of violence and sexy. Generally no one cared though we did work on a series of games that originally had no issues with the license holder, but at one point they had a regime change and sexy was all of sudden a no-go. Our last game with them was heavily changed after anything even remotely sexy was required to be removed. The cover went through a ton of revisions and I never thought the original was out of line at all. But they had a mandate and were forcing us to follow it. Though I noticed later they weren't following their own rules on their own product! And that last game sold like crap! laugh

I have to admit its been fun debating about this stuff. It's been surprisingly civil considering we've hit 4 pages.
Thanks Scott, your CV of video games worked on is stunning, I can't wait to see the fruits of your board game designs too!
And I agree about the debate - I hope we can continue with this civility during the KS campaign. Though I've backed enough games to see that this isn't easy!

To keep up good communication I'm thinking of delivering daily updates throughout the KS campaign's 30 days at an allotted time where possible, and then dropping to weekly (Friday) updates afterwards if we fund. That way we should have new art coming in at a steady rate, rather than me just wittering on about what movies I've seen or whatever...


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ninjadorg wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts J.
'Thematic' has definitely been a key part of the design process, but I'm not as sure about 'functional' - it probably doesn't suit the barbarian's loin-cloth or the Reaper's scythe for example.
It probably doesn't surprise you that I don't particularly like the Conan-style Barbarian fantasy art convention nor the Grim Reaper's weaponry in fantasy art either. And don't get me started on the ridiculous sword size in Final Fantasy games Ultimately, I acknowledge that I am in the minority on stuff like this. More people seem to like convention, which is probably why it became convention in the first place.
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EventHorizon wrote:
ninjadorg wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts J.
'Thematic' has definitely been a key part of the design process, but I'm not as sure about 'functional' - it probably doesn't suit the barbarian's loin-cloth or the Reaper's scythe for example.
It probably doesn't surprise you that I don't particularly like the Conan-style Barbarian fantasy art convention nor the Grim Reaper's weaponry in fantasy art either. And don't get me started on the ridiculous sword size in Final Fantasy games Ultimately, I acknowledge that I am in the minority on stuff like this. More people seem to like convention, which is probably why it became convention in the first place.

I gets ya.
We are the result of our influences, and I probably read too much Robert E Howard growing up, and Final Fantasy 7 is the reason I bought my first play station back in the day... I do hope you find something to enjoy in this game though! Beyond the aesthetics I believe there's compelling gameplay and a great emerging narrative for each hero. But if you're not certain either way please be sure to check out the videos before pledging.
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ninjadorg wrote:
EventHorizon wrote:
ninjadorg wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts J.
'Thematic' has definitely been a key part of the design process, but I'm not as sure about 'functional' - it probably doesn't suit the barbarian's loin-cloth or the Reaper's scythe for example.
It probably doesn't surprise you that I don't particularly like the Conan-style Barbarian fantasy art convention nor the Grim Reaper's weaponry in fantasy art either. And don't get me started on the ridiculous sword size in Final Fantasy games Ultimately, I acknowledge that I am in the minority on stuff like this. More people seem to like convention, which is probably why it became convention in the first place.

I gets ya.
We are the result of our influences, and I probably read too much Robert E Howard growing up, and Final Fantasy 7 is the reason I bought my first play station back in the day... I do hope you find something to enjoy in this game though! Beyond the aesthetics I believe there's compelling gameplay and a great emerging narrative for each hero. But if you're not certain either way please be sure to check out the videos before pledging.
While I have never purchased a fantasy game due to the artwork, I also have never let artwork prevent me from purchasing a fantasy game. This does look interesting and I wish you well with the KS campaign. I don't personally participate in any KS campaigns on principle, but will give this a look once it gets published. It does look interesting. Best of luck!
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EventHorizon wrote:
While I have never purchased a fantasy game due to the artwork, I also have never let artwork prevent me from purchasing a fantasy game. This does look interesting and I wish you well with the KS campaign. I don't personally participate in any KS campaigns on principle, but will give this a look once it gets published. It does look interesting. Best of luck!
I'm sorry to hear that J - unfortunately this game won't exist without kick starter because I'm not a games company. I guess you might be able to pick up a copy on the secondary market if we do fund though.
Thanks for checking it out in any case!
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ScottE wrote:

Should we start a poll on not buying if the art is censored?

I kid, I kid!
Er... I don't see why not.

Personally, while I think the art is probably fine either way, I confess it annoys me somewhat that some excessive and unnatural (from my perspective, imho, etc) sensibility to the human body form ends up dictating, via censorship, the material I am receiving. What gave the right to those people to determine what is acceptable or unnacceptable for me?
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tiborvadovan wrote:
ScottE wrote:

Should we start a poll on not buying if the art is censored?

I kid, I kid!
Er... I don't see why not.

Personally, while I think the art is probably fine either way, I confess it annoys me somewhat that some excessive and unnatural (from my perspective, imho, etc) sensibility to the human body form ends up dictating, via censorship, the material I am receiving. What gave the right to those people to determine what is acceptable or unnacceptable for me?
Not trying to pick a fight here, but let me try to explain. My intention is not determining what's acceptable or unacceptable to you, that's your call. But just because you have an opinion doesn't mean that I can't state mine.

Just like if we both gave Tristan feedback on the game and I said I disliked a specific mechanic and encouraged toning it down, while you liked it and encouraged him to keep it. There'd be nothing wrong with that, just two people with different preferences giving input.

My reasons for being against the kind of art we're discussing here are:

1) It's not that I have any problems with naked human bodies, but the clothing (or lack thereof) of a character should make sense in the context or it decreases my immersion in the game's world.

The clothing of the female warrior doesn't signal warrior - it seems unrealistic for her role - and thus it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

This is no different than any other element in a game that goes against what would seem "realistic" within the game world, just like equiping Roman legionaires with bazookas in what's supposed to be a simulation of the Second Punic War.

This is advice you can find in any book on story telling.


2) The specific image reinforces a sexualized stereotype about women that in my opinion has become too common. Characterizing a specific group in one way can be OK or not OK in my opinion based on the overall position and perception of that group.

Let me give an example: In Denmark where I live a movie director was recently charged for being a racist by a member of a nationalist party, because he talked negatively about "pig colored" danes (he's a pig colored Dane himself). I myself (as a pig colored Dane) have absolutely no problem with his use of that expression, because Danes with that skin color are not having issues caused by their skin color.

On the other hand a while back we had a similar racism charge where someone compared dark skinned people to monkeys, which I see a problematic, because some dark skinned people in Denmark are having issues with racism because of their skin color.

I hope I explained the distinction, so that it makes sense.
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Once the campaign is underway backers of the game will be invited to air their opinions on this image. It would consume a game play stretch goal, but given the appetite for discussion this has triggered we could potentially offer an alternative image card to satisfy both camps.
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mortenmdk wrote:
tiborvadovan wrote:
ScottE wrote:

Should we start a poll on not buying if the art is censored?

I kid, I kid!
Er... I don't see why not.

Personally, while I think the art is probably fine either way, I confess it annoys me somewhat that some excessive and unnatural (from my perspective, imho, etc) sensibility to the human body form ends up dictating, via censorship, the material I am receiving. What gave the right to those people to determine what is acceptable or unnacceptable for me?
Not trying to pick a fight here, but let me try to explain. My intention is not determining what's acceptable or unacceptable to you, that's your call. But just because you have an opinion doesn't mean that I can't state mine.

Just like if we both gave Tristan feedback on the game and I said I disliked a specific mechanic and encouraged toning it down, while you liked it and encouraged him to keep it. There'd be nothing wrong with that, just two people with different preferences giving input.

My reasons for being against the kind of art we're discussing here are:

1) It's not that I have any problems with naked human bodies, but the clothing (or lack thereof) of a character should make sense in the context or it decreases my immersion in the game's world.

The clothing of the female warrior doesn't signal warrior - it seems unrealistic for her role - and thus it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

This is no different than any other element in a game that goes against what would seem "realistic" within the game world, just like equiping Roman legionaires with bazookas in what's supposed to be a simulation of the Second Punic War.

This is advice you can find in any book on story telling.


2) The specific image reinforces a sexualized stereotype about women that in my opinion has become too common. Characterizing a specific group in one way can be OK or not OK in my opinion based on the overall position and perception of that group.

Let me give an example: In Denmark where I live a movie director was recently charged for being a racist by a member of a nationalist party, because he talked negatively about "pig colored" danes (he's a pig colored Dane himself). I myself (as a pig colored Dane) have absolutely no problem with his use of that expression, because Danes with that skin color are not having issues caused by their skin color.

On the other hand a while back we had a similar racism charge where someone compared dark skinned people to monkeys, which I see a problematic, because some dark skinned people in Denmark are having issues with racism because of their skin color.

I hope I explained the distinction, so that it makes sense.
Thanks for the articulate response. I'm also not trying to pick a fight on anyone, and i'll explain my opinion just a bit further.

I completely understand that a strong thematic dissonance can be jarring to the point of spoiling the experience. Examples would be any serious attempt at making an erotic movie with donald duck, or having tarzan as the president of the US. It just doesn't gel with the way we see the characters, and makes it impossible to enjoy the subject matter. I get that. However, and this is what I find strange, that dissonance entails a strong schism between our expectations and how characters or other elements are actually used. In this case, scantly clad and/or busty females and muscular warriors are actually a very COMMON trope of the high fantasy genre. Sure, there are exceptions, but, like it or not, going all the way back to the works of Ron Howard you find those archetype cliches are recurrently used, and they are a quite integral part of the traditional pulp high fantasy experience. Because of this, for me, leaving them out diminishes, rather than improves, immersion because these standard tropes are more important that any pretense of practical applicability of the armor gear. I mean, when you have dragons, undead and evil sorcerers, concerns about armor suitability seem a bit out of place to me.

Because of this, my gut feeling, and I admit I may be wrong on this, is that concerns are ACTUALLY mostly about your point nr. 2: objectification of woman, etc. Then, what bothers me the most is that there is frequently an implicit assumption that if I don't mind or even actually prefer the uncensored versions of this work then i'm necessarily a mysogenous, uncaring and/or immature brute/teenager. Nothing could be further away from truth, however. My ability to correctly handle my real life interactions and values I uphold are in no way related to my appreciation of what I'm well aware to be FANTASY pictures. Thousands of years of evolution have naturally conditioned me to enjoy the female body, but that does not mean I cannot treat my mother, my sister, my wife, my daughter, my co-workers and every other woman I meet as human beings rather than pieces of flesh.

*edit*
ps: I had never heard the term "pig colored" to be used in that context before. What does that mean, exactly?
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tiborvadovan wrote:
Thanks for the articulate response.
The same to you. It's great when a discussion like this can be had without it turning into mudsliging .

tiborvadovan wrote:
I completely understand that a strong thematic dissonance can be jarring to the point of spoiling the experience. Examples would be any serious attempt at making an erotic movie with donald duck, or having tarzan as the president of the US. It just doesn't gel with the way we see the characters, and makes it impossible to enjoy the subject matter. I get that. However, and this is what I find strange, that dissonance entails a strong schism between our expectations and how characters or other elements are actually used. In this case, scantly clad and/or busty females and muscular warriors are actually a very COMMON trope of the high fantasy genre. Sure, there are exceptions, but, like it or not, going all the way back to the works of Ron Howard you find those archetype cliches are recurrently used, and they are a quite integral part of the traditional pulp high fantasy experience. Because of this, for me, leaving them out diminishes, rather than improves, immersion because these standard tropes are more important that any pretense of practical applicability of the armor gear. I mean, when you have dragons, undead and evil sorcerers, concerns about armor suitability seem a bit out of place to me.


I can definitely understand that the tropes can make the scantily clad and busty females feel more thematically appropiate, but to me it simply doesn't make sense and makes me think that the setting is silly. To me it's no different that it being a common trope in movies/TV series that you can enhance a fuzzy CTV shot so that you can see incredibly small details that couldn't possibly be present in the picture. This is a common trope, but I stills kills my immersion in the story because it makes no sense within the setting of the story.

Dragons, the undead, and magic are on the other hand no problem. They make sense within the world of the story because those worlds have magic. Going into combat clothed like a porn star on the other hand makes no sense within the fantasy world, since it would get you killed.

I'm not arguing that anything that wouldn't work in real life kills suspension of disbelief - in that case I wouldn't enjoy fantasy, most sci-fi, horror stories etc. which I actually do. I'm arguing that the elements of a story should be "realistic" within the laws of physics set up for the story. That can involve magic and undeads without causing any problems, but unless your heroine is protected by magic then it's not "realistic" for her within the world of the story to go into combat in pornstar armor, you might as well have her go into combat with a cardboard sword.

tiborvadovan wrote:
Because of this, my gut feeling, and I admit I may be wrong on this, is that concerns are ACTUALLY mostly about your point nr. 2: objectification of woman, etc. Then, what bothers me the most is that there is frequently an implicit assumption that if I don't mind or even actually prefer the uncensored versions of this work then i'm necessarily a mysogenous, uncaring and/or immature brute/teenager.
There are no such assumptions intended on my part and I apologize if it seemed that way.

tiborvadovan wrote:
Nothing could be further away from truth, however. My ability to correctly handle my real life interactions and values I uphold are in no way related to my appreciation of what I'm well aware to be FANTASY pictures. Thousands of years of evolution have naturally conditioned me to enjoy the female body, but that does not mean I cannot treat my mother, my sister, my wife, my daughter, my co-workers and every other woman I meet as human beings rather than pieces of flesh.
I agree, but that said I'm also completely sure that as humans we can't help but being subconsciously influenced. If we keep seeing the same stereotype represented then it will to some extent influence us whether we want it too or not, and it will be even more influential to kids and teens.

AFAIK there's quite a bit of research backing my contention up on this.

tiborvadovan wrote:
*edit*
ps: I had never heard the term "pig colored" to be used in that context before. What does that mean, exactly?
It's a reference to the fact that the skin color of most danes are fairly similar to the skin color of pigs. His point was likely to be a bit provocative by making a negative animal comparison about ethnic Danes like derogatory comparisons between for example Africans and apes.
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tiborvadovan wrote:
Because of this, my gut feeling, and I admit I may be wrong on this, is that concerns are ACTUALLY mostly about your point nr. 2: objectification of woman, etc. Then, what bothers me the most is that there is frequently an implicit assumption that if I don't mind or even actually prefer the uncensored versions of this work then i'm necessarily a mysogenous, uncaring and/or immature brute/teenager. Nothing could be further away from truth, however. My ability to correctly handle my real life interactions and values I uphold are in no way related to my appreciation of what I'm well aware to be FANTASY pictures. Thousands of years of evolution have naturally conditioned me to enjoy the female body, but that does not mean I cannot treat my mother, my sister, my wife, my daughter, my co-workers and every other woman I meet as human beings rather than pieces of flesh.
I 100% agree. Just because I enjoy the female form and don't mind a game that has sexy images (male or female) there's an assumption I'm the one in the wrong. Same with any adult themed games. Lap Dance got a lot of grief just because of the theme even though it shows no nudity and keeps the theme light. Not all games have to be designed for kids. I work with quite a few female co-workers and treat them with respect always.

Fortunately, there's a good chance the designer will offer an alternate version if you feel the current one is too much for you.
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mortenmdk wrote:

1) It's not that I have any problems with naked human bodies, but the clothing (or lack thereof) of a character should make sense in the context or it decreases my immersion in the game's world.

The clothing of the female warrior doesn't signal warrior - it seems unrealistic for her role - and thus it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

This is no different than any other element in a game that goes against what would seem "realistic" within the game world, just like equiping Roman legionaires with bazookas in what's supposed to be a simulation of the Second Punic War.

This is advice you can find in any book on story telling.
This is why I don't like the card. If the character was a nymph or succubus I wouldn't care, but she's supposed to be a warrior. The warrior's attire isn't appropriate to her role, and as Morten said, she shouldn't be wearing porn star armor. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I enjoy or am offended by "the female form".
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HyperionHuxley wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:

1) It's not that I have any problems with naked human bodies, but the clothing (or lack thereof) of a character should make sense in the context or it decreases my immersion in the game's world.

The clothing of the female warrior doesn't signal warrior - it seems unrealistic for her role - and thus it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

This is no different than any other element in a game that goes against what would seem "realistic" within the game world, just like equiping Roman legionaires with bazookas in what's supposed to be a simulation of the Second Punic War.

This is advice you can find in any book on story telling.
This is why I don't like the card. If the character was a nymph or succubus I wouldn't care, but she's supposed to be a warrior. The warrior's attire isn't appropriate to her role, and as Morten said, she shouldn't be wearing porn star armor. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I enjoy or am offended by "the female form".
Yes but Conan is a warrior and doesn't wear armor in many of the illustrations of him and no one complains about that!
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Janelle Cooper
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HyperionHuxley wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:

1) It's not that I have any problems with naked human bodies, but the clothing (or lack thereof) of a character should make sense in the context or it decreases my immersion in the game's world.

The clothing of the female warrior doesn't signal warrior - it seems unrealistic for her role - and thus it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

This is no different than any other element in a game that goes against what would seem "realistic" within the game world, just like equiping Roman legionaires with bazookas in what's supposed to be a simulation of the Second Punic War.

This is advice you can find in any book on story telling.
This is why I don't like the card. If the character was a nymph or succubus I wouldn't care, but she's supposed to be a warrior. The warrior's attire isn't appropriate to her role, and as Morten said, she shouldn't be wearing porn star armor. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I enjoy or am offended by "the female form".
You could address both the "ageism" and the "unrealistic clothing" by using a card based on my appearance a few years ago at age 58 when still a "female warrior," but I don't think it would make anyone happy:



At least I'm not carrying a bazooka, just an M4 and my night vision

(Insert LARGE humor emoticon here)
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Bradley Ward
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mom4rmhell wrote:
HyperionHuxley wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:

1) It's not that I have any problems with naked human bodies, but the clothing (or lack thereof) of a character should make sense in the context or it decreases my immersion in the game's world.

The clothing of the female warrior doesn't signal warrior - it seems unrealistic for her role - and thus it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

This is no different than any other element in a game that goes against what would seem "realistic" within the game world, just like equiping Roman legionaires with bazookas in what's supposed to be a simulation of the Second Punic War.

This is advice you can find in any book on story telling.
This is why I don't like the card. If the character was a nymph or succubus I wouldn't care, but she's supposed to be a warrior. The warrior's attire isn't appropriate to her role, and as Morten said, she shouldn't be wearing porn star armor. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I enjoy or am offended by "the female form".
You could address both the "ageism" and the "unrealistic clothing" by using a card based on my appearance a few years ago at age 58 when still a "female warrior," but I don't think it would make anyone happy:



At least I'm not carrying a bazooka, just an M4 and my night vision

(Insert LARGE humor emoticon here)
You win.
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ScottE wrote:
HyperionHuxley wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:

1) It's not that I have any problems with naked human bodies, but the clothing (or lack thereof) of a character should make sense in the context or it decreases my immersion in the game's world.

The clothing of the female warrior doesn't signal warrior - it seems unrealistic for her role - and thus it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

This is no different than any other element in a game that goes against what would seem "realistic" within the game world, just like equiping Roman legionaires with bazookas in what's supposed to be a simulation of the Second Punic War.

This is advice you can find in any book on story telling.
This is why I don't like the card. If the character was a nymph or succubus I wouldn't care, but she's supposed to be a warrior. The warrior's attire isn't appropriate to her role, and as Morten said, she shouldn't be wearing porn star armor. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I enjoy or am offended by "the female form".
Yes but Conan is a warrior and doesn't wear armor in many of the illustrations of him and no one complains about that!
I believe that I did earlier in this thread. I find Conan ridiculous too. If they are dumb enough to not wear armor, they better be really good with their weapon and extremely vulnerable to ranged weaponry. If the character in the pictures (or Conan) had something where they took double or triple damage from ranged, I could possibly see it. As is, it is aesthetics that aren't reflected in the mechanics and thus is odd and off-putting.
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EventHorizon wrote:
ScottE wrote:
HyperionHuxley wrote:
mortenmdk wrote:

1) It's not that I have any problems with naked human bodies, but the clothing (or lack thereof) of a character should make sense in the context or it decreases my immersion in the game's world.

The clothing of the female warrior doesn't signal warrior - it seems unrealistic for her role - and thus it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

This is no different than any other element in a game that goes against what would seem "realistic" within the game world, just like equiping Roman legionaires with bazookas in what's supposed to be a simulation of the Second Punic War.

This is advice you can find in any book on story telling.
This is why I don't like the card. If the character was a nymph or succubus I wouldn't care, but she's supposed to be a warrior. The warrior's attire isn't appropriate to her role, and as Morten said, she shouldn't be wearing porn star armor. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I enjoy or am offended by "the female form".
Yes but Conan is a warrior and doesn't wear armor in many of the illustrations of him and no one complains about that!
I believe that I did earlier in this thread. I find Conan ridiculous too. If they are dumb enough to not wear armor, they better be really good with their weapon and extremely vulnerable to ranged weaponry. If the character in the pictures (or Conan) had something where they took double or triple damage from ranged, I could possibly see it. As is, it is aesthetics that aren't reflected in the mechanics and thus is odd and off-putting.
And that's the problem. We are talking about fantasy games so the normal real-world rules don't apply. Look at the various Frazetta paintings of Conan and you'll see him slogging through a dozen men with no armor and just an axe. But then the other guys generally don't have any armor either. I always find it funny when people say "it's not realistic", that's why its fantasy. Spells slinging, people taking massive blows from weapons but instantly spring back up with a healing spell or potion. Realism, it isn't!

Conan the Destroyer by Frazetta. One of my all time favorite artists. Warning: Male butt nudity!
Spoiler (click to reveal)
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Fantasy worlds have various rules that they live by. There is no one "true" fantasy world. Normal "real world" rules apply as much as the author or designer chooses and the assumption is that "real world" rules apply unless the exception is described. If someone wants their people to run around with no armor or porn armor, I would expect some explanation as to why that person doesn't die to ranged weapons or even normal melee weapons. Lacking such an explanation, the absence of such basic warrior garb seems "unrealistic" and gratuitous to me.

I find that painting to be ridiculous. Why soldiers would use shields and helmets but refuse to put on a breastplate or something protecting their chest is beyond me. It would seem like the first tribe to produce a bow and arrow, or even a spear, would have a major tactical advantage. Might be why I've never bothered to read Conan in my fantasy book consumption.
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Morten Monrad Pedersen
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ScottE wrote:
I 100% agree. Just because I enjoy the female form and don't mind a game that has sexy images (male or female) there's an assumption I'm the one in the wrong.
I hope you've seen no such assumptions in my comments here. Enjoying the female form is something that's hardwired into more or less all heterosexual males.
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ScottE wrote:
Yes but Conan is a warrior and doesn't wear armor in many of the illustrations of him and no one complains about that!
Actually people do also complain about that, but not as much, because Conan is only problematic in one of the two ways I listed: He's unrealistic, but he's not as problematic in his contribution to stereotyping a gender as the porn star armor female warriors are.

Outfitting women in scanty clothes is fairly pervasive compared to men.

Male warrior: Fully covered in chainmail and leather armor.
Female warrior: Pornstar chainmail bikini

Male knight: Full plate armor
Female knight: Pornstar boob plate

Male sorceror: Fully clothed in a large robe.
Female sorceror: Pornstar sorceror clothing.

Male thief: Fully clothed.
Female thief: Pornstar thief clothing.

Etc.

Yes, you can look at an image of a scantily clad Conan and a scantily clad female fighter and say that they're the same, but my point is that you can't view the two images without context and in this case the context is that females are depicted in a way more sexualized manner than men in general.

This is why I gave my example with "pig colored Danes" causing me no problems, but comparing Africans to apes because of skin color is something I consider problematic.
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mom4rmhell wrote:
You could address both the "ageism" and the "unrealistic clothing" by using a card based on my appearance a few years ago at age 58 when still a "female warrior," but I don't think it would make anyone happy:



At least I'm not carrying a bazooka, just an M4 and my night vision

(Insert LARGE humor emoticon here)
Janelle, seriously, thanks for posting that cool photo – I had to click through and read more about your story. It was both fascinating and moving to read, thanks for sharing.
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