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Subject: Jinteki? rss

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Shayn Chan
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As much as I want to believe this game is perfectly balanced, I keep seeing people raving about how weak Jinteki is.

Background: I've lost only a few times more than I've won so my stats haven't supported the generally accepted. I only play with girlfriend. We only have core set.

What is it about Jinteki that makes it so weak in people's eyes?

Edit: I'm talking about Jinteki strength in terms of core set only environment, sorry for not being clear.
 
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Kevin Fowle
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I watch a fair amount of games on YouTube, and a lot of people play, and win with RP.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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When are these videos dated? Jinteki historically had poor in-faction economy options, weak ICE and a mediocre Agenda spread. A lot of that has been remedied in the Lunar cycle and Honor and Profit.
 
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Shayn Chan
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So you're saying, if Jinteki had great economy, it'd be competitive?
 
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Brad Miller
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Core set they sucked. Not enough traps or good agendas. They've come a long way since Core...
 
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Andrew Keddie
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recentlyinterested wrote:
So you're saying, if Jinteki had great economy, it'd be competitive?


It's no one single thing. Jinteki has multiple good decks now (RP being one of the strongest decks around) and they work because of different factors. Some work because the econ immproved. Some because of taxing or flat-out dangerous ICE. Some because of Agendas like House of Knives or The Future Perfect. Some work better thanks to cards like Mushin no Shin which enable Ambush/Ronin shell games much better than before.
 
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Jinteki is, in my opinion, the hardest team to play well.

But oh, they pay dividends.
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Witold Jakubowski
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RP is not Jinteki. RP is like a standalone faction.
True roots Jinteki plays to kill runner ;-) or score agendas because runner it to scared to run.
//edit: For those who can not read between the lines: usually RP is a hermetic and almost closed build that acts in a different manner than any other Jinteki ID. Therefore it's kinda like a faction inside a faction, with low diversity of cards among decks build by different players (due to such build effectivness).
Other Jinteki ID tends to play around damage and damage aftermath in order to flatline the runner or create scoring window by putting a runner in a place he can not afford to steal an agenda (damage-wise) or creating a killing-risk situation, where runner ignore the possible agenda in fear of damage.
This is of course only my humble opinion, not to be consider professional or accurate.


Net damage Jinteki is not too strong, because a good runner (both well build and well playing) can keep net damage under control. Such Jinteki decks have no backup plan.

Personally I recommend brain damage Jinteki. Hattori Hanso with traps and such + Marcus Batty with Viktor 1.0 is a killer.
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Mychal
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donmakaron wrote:
RP is not Jinteki. RP is like a standalone faction.
True roots Jinteki plays to kill runner ;-) or score agendas because runner it to scared to run.


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman
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Shayn Chan
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Thanks to everyone for your replies, but I was looking for problems of jinteki only in context of the core set.

Edit: If you talk solutions, try to solve it with cards that are only in core set cuz that's all i have and i have no money to get any more for now
 
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Travis Doerr
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The problems Jinteki had existed from core set until they were fixed with Honor and Profit and Lunar, so every answer was in context. They tend to not have enough money, they didn't have enough traps, and their ice/agendas were mediocre at best. None of this is easily solved with splashes from the core set, which is why it was considered a weak faction until the Lunar cycle. Everything FFG gave them to try to fix it up to that point made it marginally better at best.

The only real recommendation is to get good at bluffing and messing with the runner's head. The best Jinteki players tend to have people guessing the whole time, and that never really changes regardless of the faction's current power level. Once you get the money your first purchase should be Honor and Profit if you are set on playing Jinteki. That will fix a lot of the faction's weaknesses and by that time you will have developed a lot of the skills required to play Jinteki very effectively.
 
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Grant Whitesell
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I ran into that problem myself. Much of the Jinteki kill ICE is positional. Chum > Katana, Cell Portal > Anything Nasty. So - get familiar with the neutral ETR ice. Put Junebugs, Melange, PAD campaigns and even agendas out naked, or with a Wall of Static or something small.

Core Set Jinteki PE *definitely* has much more trouble generating sustained econ. A facechecking runner will bankrupt you if you let him. The only way I managed to win - play the old shell game. Remember you don't HAVE to rez ICE (barring Forged Activation Orders). Always make sure you have at least four on hand to trigger snares. If he's running R&D, and rezzing that ICE will drop you below, you may not want to rez it. Snares are pretty much the biggest weapon Core Set Jinteki has in my opinion.

I think it is a weaker deck objectively VS. the other core set options - BUT - if you can read, bluff, and love high-risk/high-reward, you can absolutely win with just the Core Set.
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Witold Jakubowski
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Skylar114 wrote:
donmakaron wrote:
RP is not Jinteki. RP is like a standalone faction.
True roots Jinteki plays to kill runner ;-) or score agendas because runner it to scared to run.


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman


Didn't know it was such a serious debate.

Back to the main topic - core set Jinteki is not among the strongest corps in the box. IMHO it's easier to learn how to play well against net damage, than learn how to play Jinteki Personal Evolution well.

Hope I didn't offend anyone this time.
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Grish Noren
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Jinteki is hard to play. Not impossible pre honor and profit.

Learn from the player:
https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/19853/my-secret-love-affa...
 
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Double Plus Undead
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My theory is that Jinteki is so weak in Core because Lukas was afraid of making them too powerful and breaking the game. They already have, what...4 damage cards? (Snare, Neural EMP, Neural Katana, Project Junebug) Sure, HB has that nasty brain damage, but it's a joke because you can just click through it. Weyland has Scorched Earth, but the runner has to be tagged first. Most of the time, the condition for getting zapped by Jinteki is "Ohh, you picked the wrong card!" So, that's why I think they're so weak. The design erred on the side of caution, and it's better to have them too weak than too strong.

On the other hand, Core Jinteki is a good deck for playing against newbies, because it's easy to beat and people like to win. Of course, I warn them about Junebugs and things like that before we play. If my opponent already knows how to play and I want to give them a bit more of a challenge, I go with Weyland or NBN.
 
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Shayn Chan
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pirate_chef wrote:
My theory is that Jinteki is so weak in Core because Lukas was afraid of making them too powerful and breaking the game. They already have, what...4 damage cards? (Snare, Neural EMP, Neural Katana, Project Junebug) Sure, HB has that nasty brain damage, but it's a joke because you can just click through it. Weyland has Scorched Earth, but the runner has to be tagged first. Most of the time, the condition for getting zapped by Jinteki is "Ohh, you picked the wrong card!" So, that's why I think they're so weak. The design erred on the side of caution, and it's better to have them too weak than too strong.

On the other hand, Core Jinteki is a good deck for playing against newbies, because it's easy to beat and people like to win. Of course, I warn them about Junebugs and things like that before we play. If my opponent already knows how to play and I want to give them a bit more of a challenge, I go with Weyland or NBN.


Hey, thanks for a very objective and thoughtful input!

Do you have any ways (core only) I can fix up jinteki?

Edit: Oh and you missed four more cards that do damage: ID, Chum, Wall of Thorns, and Data Mine...wow 8
 
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Double Plus Undead
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recentlyinterested wrote:

Do you have any ways (core only) I can fix up jinteki?


Sorry, I'm probably not going to be much help there. I started buying expansions as soon as they came out, so I don't have much experience building core-only decks.

Let's see...Ice Wall in good in any faction, but especially in Jinteki, because they don't have a lot of stop ice, and Ice Wall is cheap. (And you can buff it later.)

I kind of like the idea of Matrix Analyzer for head games. (Did I just advance an agenda or a Junebug??)

Beanstalk Royalties might be a good idea, since Jinteki is so poor, and it's only 1 influence.
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Shayn Chan
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pirate_chef wrote:
recentlyinterested wrote:

Do you have any ways (core only) I can fix up jinteki?


Sorry, I'm probably not going to be much help there. I started buying expansions as soon as they came out, so I don't have much experience building core-only decks.

Let's see...Ice Wall in good in any faction, but especially in Jinteki, because they don't have a lot of stop ice, and Ice Wall is cheap. (And you can buff it later.)

I kind of like the idea of Matrix Analyzer for head games. (Did I just advance an agenda or a Junebug??)

Beanstalk Royalties might be a good idea, since Jinteki is so poor, and it's only 1 influence.


Thank you!! You just gave me the exact reply I was looking for!
 
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Joshua Imobersteg
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Oof...how to make Jinteki work in core only. I honestly tried for about an hour to make a solid deck, but ended up getting frustrated.

For influence probably something like:

2 Ice Wall
3 Beanstalk Royalties
2 Tollbooth
1 Ichi 1.0
1 Scorched Earth (for use after a Snare! lands or Criminals go Tag-me)

You're going to need a lot of econ to supplement the above. 3 Hedge for sure....probably 2 Pad and maybe 2 or 3 melange. I'd almost suggest Adonis Campaign, but you need the influence to get decent ICE into your deck.

Tollbooth and Ichi 1.0 are sadly expensive to rez, but are some of the best ice in the core set. I'd want 3 ice wall, but a single copy of scorch usually does wonders in core-set only Jinteki. At some point people will stop caring about tags (usually criminal / anarch). I really feel the 4 inf is worth it just to be able to solidify a kill as people often don't expect it.

If you don't want to go that route, dropping scorch for more econ (adonis) or better ice (ice wall) is a solid choice. I'd probably go with 2 Adonis Campaign.
 
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Grish Noren
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I did the same thing a while back, just to see; No idea how this would play, but it's the best theory-shop deck I could come up with:

Core Jinteki

Jinteki: Personal Evolution (Core Set)

Agenda (9)
3x Nisei MK II (Core Set)
3x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Private Security Force (Core Set)

Asset (13)
1x Aggressive Secretary (Core Set) ••
3x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)
3x PAD Campaign (Core Set)
3x Project Junebug (Core Set)
3x Snare! (Core Set)

Operation (9)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Neural EMP (Core Set)
2x Precognition (Core Set)
1x Scorched Earth (Core Set) ••••

Barrier (6)
1x Ice Wall (Core Set)
3x Wall of Static (Core Set)
2x Wall of Thorns (Core Set)

Code Gate (5)
1x Chum (Core Set)
3x Enigma (Core Set)
1x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••

Sentry (7)
2x Ichi 1.0 (Core Set) ••••
3x Neural Katana (Core Set)
2x Rototurret (Core Set) ••
15 influence spent (max 15)
21 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Core Set

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

Argument stands that you probably want more money. Could lose a junebug and ichi for 2x beanstalk.
 
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Shayn Chan
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nungunz wrote:
Oof...how to make Jinteki work in core only. I honestly tried for about an hour to make a solid deck, but ended up getting frustrated.

For influence probably something like:

2 Ice Wall
3 Beanstalk Royalties
2 Tollbooth
1 Ichi 1.0
1 Scorched Earth (for use after a Snare! lands or Criminals go Tag-me)

You're going to need a lot of econ to supplement the above. 3 Hedge for sure....probably 2 Pad and maybe 2 or 3 melange. I'd almost suggest Adonis Campaign, but you need the influence to get decent ICE into your deck.

Tollbooth and Ichi 1.0 are sadly expensive to rez, but are some of the best ice in the core set. I'd want 3 ice wall, but a single copy of scorch usually does wonders in core-set only Jinteki. At some point people will stop caring about tags (usually criminal / anarch). I really feel the 4 inf is worth it just to be able to solidify a kill as people often don't expect it.

If you don't want to go that route, dropping scorch for more econ (adonis) or better ice (ice wall) is a solid choice. I'd probably go with 2 Adonis Campaign.


Thank you for the thoughtful reply!
I will be trying this out =)

Cheers
 
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Shayn Chan
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gumOnShoe wrote:
I did the same thing a while back, just to see; No idea how this would play, but it's the best theory-shop deck I could come up with:

Core Jinteki

Jinteki: Personal Evolution (Core Set)

Agenda (9)
3x Nisei MK II (Core Set)
3x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Private Security Force (Core Set)

Asset (13)
1x Aggressive Secretary (Core Set) ••
3x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)
3x PAD Campaign (Core Set)
3x Project Junebug (Core Set)
3x Snare! (Core Set)

Operation (9)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Neural EMP (Core Set)
2x Precognition (Core Set)
1x Scorched Earth (Core Set) ••••

Barrier (6)
1x Ice Wall (Core Set)
3x Wall of Static (Core Set)
2x Wall of Thorns (Core Set)

Code Gate (5)
1x Chum (Core Set)
3x Enigma (Core Set)
1x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••

Sentry (7)
2x Ichi 1.0 (Core Set) ••••
3x Neural Katana (Core Set)
2x Rototurret (Core Set) ••
15 influence spent (max 15)
21 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Core Set

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

Argument stands that you probably want more money. Could lose a junebug and ichi for 2x beanstalk.


This seems similar to nungunz's suggested deck. I really appreciate this!

Have a good day! =)
 
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Michele Lupo
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i'd go for either more ichi over the rototurrets or another tollbooth, scorched is a good surprise card, but consider running a couple of hunters too, they are amazingly obnoxious and combo extremely well with chum.
 
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Shayn Chan
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Wolf88 wrote:
i'd go for either more ichi over the rototurrets or another tollbooth, scorched is a good surprise card, but consider running a couple of hunters too, they are amazingly obnoxious and combo extremely well with chum.


Oohh Chum with hunter...interesting!
 
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Wabi Sabi Will

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Jinteki is, has always been, and always will be a predominantly skill based faction.

This is why you hear about how Jinteki is 'weak' more often than other factions; because the people complaining that Jinteki is weak have a weak Jinteki game.
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