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Subject: Jinteki? rss

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Erik Twice
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photogasm wrote:
Jinteki is, has always been, and always will be a predominantly skill based faction.

As opposed to the other factions, which require no skill to play?

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This is why you hear about how Jinteki is 'weak' more often than other factions; because the people complaining that Jinteki is weak have a weak Jinteki game.

Funny that people stopped having a weak Jinteki game once Sundew, Caprice and Mushin no Shin were released
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General_Norris wrote:
Funny that people stopped having a weak Jinteki game once Sundew, Caprice and Mushin no Shin were released


Jinteki won U.S. nationals before that, now.
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General_Norris wrote:
photogasm wrote:
Jinteki is, has always been, and always will be a predominantly skill based faction.

As opposed to the other factions, which require no skill to play?


Saw this coming, which is why I put the word predominantly in here. Jinteki relies more on skill than the other factions in my opinion, because Jinteki tends to rely more on bluffing and mind games than the other factions. Not everyone is good at this.

The other factions don't require no skill to play, they're just less skill reliant than Jinteki, again, in my opinion.


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gumOnShoe wrote:
General_Norris wrote:
Funny that people stopped having a weak Jinteki game once Sundew, Caprice and Mushin no Shin were released

Jinteki won U.S. nationals before that, now.

With a losing record on corp games.
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I don't really like hearing things like "Jinteki is more skill based". It sounds like losing with Jinteki should be more worthy of respect than winning with NBN FA, and it really feels wrong to me. All decks require a certain degree of skill to be played. Jinteki is probably flashier in punishing mistakes but by no means more "skill" is required to win a game with Jinteki as opposed to NBN. It probably requires more luck though.
 
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Wolf88 wrote:
I don't really like hearing things like "Jinteki is more skill based". It sounds like losing with Jinteki should be more worthy of respect than winning with NBN FA, and it really feels wrong to me. All decks require a certain degree of skill to be played. Jinteki is probably flashier in punishing mistakes but by no means more "skill" is required to win a game with Jinteki as opposed to NBN. It probably requires more luck though.


Well I generally have more respect for those losing with Jinteki than those winning with NBN Fastro. It really is like winning the game on "easy mode". It still requires skill to win, but you're on the lowest difficulty setting.
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Skylar114 wrote:
Wolf88 wrote:
I don't really like hearing things like "Jinteki is more skill based". It sounds like losing with Jinteki should be more worthy of respect than winning with NBN FA, and it really feels wrong to me. All decks require a certain degree of skill to be played. Jinteki is probably flashier in punishing mistakes but by no means more "skill" is required to win a game with Jinteki as opposed to NBN. It probably requires more luck though.


Well I generally have more respect for those losing with Jinteki than those winning with NBN Fastro. It really is like winning the game on "easy mode". It still requires skill to win, but you're on the lowest difficulty setting.


I disagree, you need to understand correctly the game in both cases, but playing jinteki means that you trade FA's inevitability for simply the chance to win by variance. You aren't going to kill anyone with pure skill, you are going to do it only through luck or because the opponent misplayed. Why rely on misplays that could or could not happen?
 
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Wolf88 wrote:
You aren't going to kill anyone with pure skill, you are going to do it only through luck or because the opponent misplayed. Why rely on misplays that could or could not happen?


I think that comments like this come from a fundamental misunderstanding of how Jinteki works. I don't believe that Jinteki is any more "random" than the other corps. How is it that players who lose to Jinteki were "unlucky" or "misplayed", but ones who lose to NBN not?
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pirate_chef wrote:
Wolf88 wrote:
You aren't going to kill anyone with pure skill, you are going to do it only through luck or because the opponent misplayed. Why rely on misplays that could or could not happen?


I think that comments like this come from a fundamental misunderstanding of how Jinteki works. I don't believe that Jinteki is any more "random" than the other corps. How is it that players who lose to Jinteki were "unlucky" or "misplayed", but ones who lose to NBN not?


Ok i'll try explaining myself better because i probably didn't. Let's say say for example i Mushin-no-shin a card. It can be a trap or an agenda or a Ronin. Now the runner can either run it or not run it. Neither is considered "good play", from the runner perspective, the outcome is completely random. If i Mushin an agenda and the runner runs it, it's not good play on his part, it's simply random chance. If i mushin overwriter and the runner runs it, it's not bad play, it's still random.

Against NBN those random elements simply don't exist because the corp cannot punish "unlucky" accesses, so you need enough skill to maximize the number of your accesses and make them as efficent as possible and hope it's enough.

Of course you can still misplay against NBN and lose, but NBN can win even if the runner makes all the correct choices, while a heavily flatline oriented Jinteki has to rely on the hidden information and will lose if the runner, by variance, makes all the correct choices. I don't really see why it's better to play a deck that suffers from those variance spikes than a reliable one. (any "I do it because it's fun" reply is moot, i'm talking strictly play-to-win here.)
 
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Brodie
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For one thing, even if we all agree that the outcomes are random, as you say, I think it's a mistake to assume that they all have an equal chance of occurring. I think it's probably possible to assess the odds, like players in other card games do (Poker, Blackjack, etc.), and hedge your bets based on what you think the odds spread are. Put another way: I Mushin no Shin a card and install ice protecting it. Do you think the odds that the Runner runs it or leaves it alone are the same whether they have 1 card in hand, 0 cards in hand, 5 cards in hand, I've Had Worse in hand? I think the odds are likely to differ in each of those cases, and that someone who is adept at assessing those odds may well prefer to play Jinteki, because they can get extra value out of what you're calling random chance. (Disclaimer: I am not that person.)
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Wolf88 wrote:

Ok i'll try explaining myself better because i probably didn't. Let's say say for example i Mushin-no-shin a card. It can be a trap or an agenda or a Ronin. Now the runner can either run it or not run it. Neither is considered "good play", from the runner perspective, the outcome is completely random. If i Mushin an agenda and the runner runs it, it's not good play on his part, it's simply random chance. If i mushin overwriter and the runner runs it, it's not bad play, it's still random.


This isn't an accurate use of the word "random". The information is hidden from the runner, barring expose effects, but that doesn't mean the card becomes random. I think you mean that the runner's decision-making is based off of random chance because the information is hidden. Even then, the runner has heuristics to make decisions. Observing the corp player can lead to knowledge about the situation (this is why some players randomly shuffle cards before installing). Runners can also glean information from board state. For example, if the corp is unwilling to go below 3 creds (eg, by rezzing ice or triggering Snare!), the runner has a reason to believe the advanced card is Cerebral Overwriter. There are many other heuristics, but the point is that it can't simply be reduced to a random chance as you put it.
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I'll try to correct myself. The outcome of the corp's actions from the corp's point of view is mostly random in Jinteki. You can't be certain that a mushin will score an agenda or flatline the runner. You can only hope that you misdirected the runner enough to make him fall for a trap or avoid an agenda. And even with those heuristics, you never have an "assured" play, most of the time, you, the corp, just play the odds.

The more tools the runner has to divine what is the correct play, the worse Jinteki gets, but even with zero tools, he can get it right half of the time.

Meanwhile, paying 6 to rez SanSan City grid means two agenda points, an astro token AND the runner now has to trash it. The only variance you have is that it could get trashed before you rez it, and that's still a net positive.
 
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Quote:
The more tools the runner has to divine what is the correct play, the worse Jinteki gets, but even with zero tools, he can get it right half of the time.
The whole point of Jinteki is that you need to present them with a 50/50 option of "points or death" not just once, but as many times as possible. If you can do it, say, 10 or 12 times in one game, then it's very unlikely a runner will survive.

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Meanwhile, paying 6 to rez SanSan City grid means two agenda points, an astro token AND the runner now has to trash it. The only variance you have is that it could get trashed before you rez it, and that's still a net positive.
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clydeiii wrote:
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The more tools the runner has to divine what is the correct play, the worse Jinteki gets, but even with zero tools, he can get it right half of the time.
The whole point of Jinteki is that you need to present them with a 50/50 option of "points or death" not just once, but as many times as possible. If you can do it, say, 10 or 12 times in one game, then it's very unlikely a runner will survive.


The problem with that reasoning is that you are as likely to lose as the runner is. With every 50/50 chance that goes wrong, you lose both points and tempo and it's unaffordable.
 
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Zak Jarvis
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Wolf88 wrote:
The problem with that reasoning is that you are as likely to lose as the runner is. With every 50/50 chance that goes wrong, you lose both points and tempo and it's unaffordable.


Are you playing seven point agendas?

It was points-or-death, not win-or-death. Take the corner case of a deck of all one-pointers. If you can set up many 50/50 points-or-death plays, the Runner will need to win seven to win the game without you winning one. That's a one in a hundred and twenty-eight shot for the Runner.

That's the best case scenario for the Corp. But say the Runner only needs to win two 50/50 points-or-death decisions throughout the game, and the Corp will win if the Runner refuses to play. That's still only a one in four chance for the Runner! If you can set up death decisions consistently that the Runner has to play, you will win much more than you lose. If the Runner can score points without taking those decisions, you won't. It's why Ronin is such an important card: it makes the Runner play.
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It's almost impossible to set up as many death or points situations as you say. Pain or points, sure but for death, I only have 3 mushin and at most 3 junebugs. Even a 4 advanced Junebug is survivable (draw 3,run) so I would need to draw all my deck in a particular exact order AND have a runner who isn't actively countering my play style (keyhole or medium, Syphon spam, deus X, feedback filter, APEX, etc) to actually follow through on the death threat. Overwriter is better, but still, no real guarantee of success. And not hitting with an early Overwriter means that the game is so much harder. And among all this, I'm still opening myself to the random chance that the runner simply makes all the correct choices.
 
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Erik Twice
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Wolf88 wrote:
If i Mushin an agenda and the runner runs it, it's not good play on his part, it's simply random chance. If i mushin overwriter and the runner runs it, it's not bad play, it's still random.

"Mushin an agenda" and "Mushin an Overwriter" as well as "Mushin a Ronin" are not equivalent plays. They have different goals, impact the game in different ways and have different cost.

It's as random as choosing between putting Adonis or Accelerated Beta Test in your remote. That is; not at all.


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Of course they are completely different things with completely different objectives. But the OUTCOME of those actions from the corp's point of view, is random. There is no line of play that allows you to still gain a profit if the runner makes the optimal play and there is nothing you can do to tilt the odds in your favor. Every play is a 50/50.

If the runner somehow randomly runs all your ronins and agendas and dodges your overwriters, what will you do?
 
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That's like asking what you're going to do if Noise mills 3 agendas on turn 1 and runs archives.

Jinteki shell game is not about playing a 50-50 odds and hoping to come out on top. It's about reading the board and your opponent.

We have a long term PE player in our group and when playing against him everything you run on is a trap, everything you don't run on is an agenda. He has a stupidly high winrate and is the number one player I don't want to face in a tournament.

I think my winrate against his PE is 1-4 in his favour and I only won that game because with a hand size of 16 you can afford to repeatedly hit overwriters and snares. Also Film Critic is stupidly good against fetals.
 
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You do nothing against noise because he is kinda OP, but it's not your responsibility either.

That kind of jinteki deck is so trivial to beat with a little teching that it's not even fun. Feedback filter makes you immortal, drive by or even good old Infiltration defuses 99% of the traps and any deck with some draw acceleration can keep up with the net damage you get by completely ransacking the central servers.
 
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Wolf88 wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Quote:
The more tools the runner has to divine what is the correct play, the worse Jinteki gets, but even with zero tools, he can get it right half of the time.
The whole point of Jinteki is that you need to present them with a 50/50 option of "points or death" not just once, but as many times as possible. If you can do it, say, 10 or 12 times in one game, then it's very unlikely a runner will survive.


The problem with that reasoning is that you are as likely to lose as the runner is. With every 50/50 chance that goes wrong, you lose both points and tempo and it's unaffordable.
False. If you present them with a choice to either run on a trap or not and they don't, then you haven't lost points and sometimes not even tempo, with Trick or Light and the new card that gives you 3cr per advancement on a card.
 
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Erik Twice
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Wolf88 wrote:
Of course they are completely different things with completely different objectives. But the OUTCOME of those actions from the corp's point of view, is random.

I don't want to offend you Wolf88, but you don't seem to understand what randomness is nor how hidden information affects the game.

There's nothing random about the behaviour of the Runner or the Corporation. Players do not act randomly, they act in consequence to their skills, style of play, mood and , most importantly, their position on the board.

Even then, even if it the outcome were "random", the possible outcomes after playing a Ronin, an Overwriter or a Future Perfect are not the same and don't impact the game in the same way. You can plan accordingly and good bluffs will assure that no matter what your oppponent does, the outcome will be favourable.

It seems to me from this discussion, and from seeing your decklists in NetrunnerDB and some of your comments in Stimhack that you are not a very skilled player. Again, I mean no offense, there's no obligation to be a skilled player, but you have to realize that it colours your perception of the game and that other, better players not only don't think this stuff is "random" or a "50/50" chance but are actively winning tournaments in the Nordic countries and Australia as we speak.

I think you would enjoy the game, and its surrounding discussions more if you reconsidered what you know and were more open to questioning your fundamentals and why a deck loses or wins
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Another way to think of it is to consider poker.

If you bet into a pot, your opponents could always fold to you when they are holding a worse hand and call your bet if they have a better hand. You have no control over their response. But that doesn't mean that their play is random!

You have to consider what possible hands the opponent could be holding, then estimate what likelihood you attach to each of those potential hands based on what you know about them and the state of the game. You either know, or estimate, the expected value of each of those hands (it's simple in poker, you either lose your stake if their hand is better, or win their stake if it's worse). If you add up all of the individual likelihoods and values, you get a number which is positive or negative. Bet on the hands where you have a positive expected pay-off and not the negative ones!

Now obviously you don't sit there doing long division in a notebook, but rather you intuitively guesstimate the broad expectations when you assess the value of a potential bet. It's fundamentally a probabilistic approach, not a deterministic one. You couldn't play poker with a strictly deterministic mindset: you'd never bet unless you already held a royal flush!

Jinteki is the faction that plays most with the probabilistic approach. The values are less easy to assess than in poker (What is a brain damage "worth" versus three credits, or a click, or an agenda point? How does it change with the game state?), but the principle is the same. If you "bet on" (i.e. try to engineer) situations where you estimate the expected value is 60-40 in your favour and avoid those you guesstimate are 40-60 against you, you'll do well. Of course you need to be able to assess the values and likelihoods well. Both are a bit of an art and the latter, like poker, requires some degree of reading your opponent!
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I've played Personal Evolution since the beginning and the biggest problem with Jinteki is that people think they're only going to win by killing with some crazy trap. That's not the point of Personal Evolution (which is why I'd also say that decklist with Priority Reqs in it is terrible for PE - you want lots of easy to score agendas that are worth small amounts of points, not 3 pointers, generally). Personal Evolution is an extremely taxing Corp to play against because when the runner wins, you win a little, and when you win, you win even more. So the point isn't just to trick them with mind games. It's to create a situation in the game where they HAVE to go look at a certain card, even if it is a trap. You have to tax the runner through damage so much that they have to play a little riskier. Even though I think some of the new Jinteki IDs are just awesome (even RP) I can't ever leave PE for long. Ive been too used to the play style of PE where I win a little even when you score.

Now - all that said, even though I played Jinteki at Core and won before they got stronger from H+P, I'd strongly recommend picking up some of the data packs. I can't imagine playing Jinteki without Shock! and Fetal AI (best card ever for Jinteki).
 
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