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Subject: Jinteki? rss

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Clyde W
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Two scored House of Knives is also insane.
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Reddish22
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Yeah. House of Knives is just so good in PE. It's all about that constant tax and it can be really hard to deal with as the Runner. It's especially damaging against Crim decks that don't necessarily run a lot of recursion. Losing some core cards can just end the game - or - as my first post suggests, put the Runner in a situation where they MUST play in a way they don't want to. That's what its all about for me as a PE player.
 
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Michele Lupo
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General_Norris wrote:
Wolf88 wrote:
Of course they are completely different things with completely different objectives. But the OUTCOME of those actions from the corp's point of view, is random.

I don't want to offend you Wolf88, but you don't seem to understand what randomness is nor how hidden information affects the game.

There's nothing random about the behaviour of the Runner or the Corporation. Players do not act randomly, they act in consequence to their skills, style of play, mood and , most importantly, their position on the board.

Even then, even if it the outcome were "random", the possible outcomes after playing a Ronin, an Overwriter or a Future Perfect are not the same and don't impact the game in the same way. You can plan accordingly and good bluffs will assure that no matter what your oppponent does, the outcome will be favourable.


I agree with that, yet I feel I'm still not expressing myself properly. English is not my first language and sometimes I struggle with that. I know that the possible outcome of every different action is vastly different and that playing Mushin-Overwriter is very different from playing Mushin-The Future Perfect. My point is that, considering the layers of bluffing and doublebluffing, while you might have an idea of what your opponent's reaction to such a "trap" play will be, you can't be sure. You can't quantify the odds (No way to say "with this boardstate, my opponent has a 68% chance to let me score a naked agenda) and you have to play by the seat of your pants. While some superhuman player who can anticipate every opponent's reaction might exist, I don't think it's the general case. Note that i'm not arguing against Jinteki in general, just again those "shell game" builds. Adding ICE to the mix completely changes things. Thus what i'm saying is that, whether the runner decides to take a bait or not, while not functionally random, it might as well be, because there is no way to ensure a 100% outcome on the action. Trick of light is an excellent answer someone provided as a way to ensure such outcome, however, Jinteki lacks powerful 3 cost agendas (except house of knives, that's worth just one point however)

General_Norris wrote:
It seems to me from this discussion, and from seeing your decklists in NetrunnerDB and some of your comments in Stimhack that you are not a very skilled player. Again, I mean no offense, there's no obligation to be a skilled player, but you have to realize that it colours your perception of the game and that other, better players not only don't think this stuff is "random" or a "50/50" chance but are actively winning tournaments in the Nordic countries and Australia as we speak.

I think you would enjoy the game, and its surrounding discussions more if you reconsidered what you know and were more open to questioning your fundamentals and why a deck loses or wins


I have been playing since the core set came out on OCTGN. Lately my game-time has been drastically lowered by things like work and children, but i still consider myself an above average player and deckbuilder. Most of the crap you see published on my NRDB is simply experiments or tests with a very specific purpose because i feel the need to explore the newer cards to understand them, but I don't usually bring such decks to tournaments.

I am always open to questioning everything
 
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Clyde W
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Have you played the 2nd place Worlds PE deck from 2014? It is a "shell game" deck and is devastating. Play around with that.
 
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Michele Lupo
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clydeiii wrote:
Have you played the 2nd place Worlds PE deck from 2014? It is a "shell game" deck and is devastating. Play around with that.


Honestly I haven't. Link?
 
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Lech Karol Pawłaszek
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Wolf88 wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Have you played the 2nd place Worlds PE deck from 2014? It is a "shell game" deck and is devastating. Play around with that.


Honestly I haven't. Link?


http://www.acoo.net/deck/5101/worlds-championship-2014-2nd-m...
 
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Clyde W
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Wolf88 wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Have you played the 2nd place Worlds PE deck from 2014? It is a "shell game" deck and is devastating. Play around with that.


Honestly I haven't. Link?
I've been playing the game since Core. I gave my GF, who's never played the game before, that deck. She beat me like 6 times in a row, and that was with me knowing what was in the deck (though admittedly not teching against that deck specifically).
 
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Daniel Wray
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Thread necro!

Seriously, though, I love Jinteki and it is not a random chance that determines success. Some here have touched on it, but it's all about creating situations that are win-win, no matter what the runner does.

I'll give an example using my favorite face down naked install, Fetal AI. That card is just nuts. Mushin-No-Shin that bad boy, drop another advance on it, and pass your turn.

Is it a trap, or am I planning to score it? It can do either, I don't care. If the runner hits it, I just cost them 3 cards (as PE) and two credits. It's kind of like a Snare that the runner has to pay for. I've probably just bought myself a scoring window while they recover. If they don't run it, I can score it whenever I feel like for 2 points. Brilliant.

Cerebral Overwriter is another win-win. Brain damage is always a serious advantage. If they smell a trap? Slap Shell Corp down and start raking in money. Use it later with Trick Of Light. Now you can even pull a bunch of money with Back Channel.

My Jinteki play also includes something I have never seen anyone else do. I used scoring agendas with PE as no-click Neural EMP's to flatline the runner. I could have as many as three agendas down naked waiting to be scored, all posing as traps. Ronin could be part of the equation, and Philotic was frequently a superstar. I just waited for the runner to be in killing range. 5-6 net damage on my turn was not uncommon for my kill deck.

I don't know how viable it is with I've Had Worse running around. It was all the rage after Order and Chaos. Maybe that has calmed down some, but it has given me pause on resurrecting my kill deck again, but I will certainly still be playing Jinteki in some fashion or another.
 
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Steven Tu
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Your opponents must be really willing to let you advance stuff unbothered. That's seldom happened in my meta. Most runners are prepared - not dying is a great payoff for hitting ambushes, and not to mention the jinteki (and all ambush) weakness to siphon spam.

It's cool when it works out, but it's not really foolproof. I played a ton of jinteki, tried every variant from shell game to prog killer teki (I hope it makes a comeback after the MWL), and man, it's never straight forward.
 
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Nova Cat
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cynchwyrm wrote:
I don't know how viable it is with I've Had Worse running around.

In my experience, IHW isn't a hard-counter to kill decks. It's annoying, certainly, and something you need to be aware of, but it's not strong enough to neuter an otherwise powerful kill deck on its own.
 
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Daniel Wray
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Tuism wrote:
Your opponents must be really willing to let you advance stuff unbothered. That's seldom happened in my meta. Most runners are prepared - not dying is a great payoff for hitting ambushes, and not to mention the jinteki (and all ambush) weakness to siphon spam.

It's cool when it works out, but it's not really foolproof. I played a ton of jinteki, tried every variant from shell game to prog killer teki (I hope it makes a comeback after the MWL), and man, it's never straight forward.


Cerebral Overwriter continues to be a threat that is significant, even at IAA. I tend to double down on the threat by waiting until I have Mushin in hand. Four counters on a face down should give anyone significant pause.

I admit Siphon spam could be an issue, but frankly I have been lucky enough not to run into it.
 
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