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Subject: Is it dead, yet? rss

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Xander Fulton
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So ICv2 just released their channel sales numbers for non-collectible miniatures for spring 2015.

After holding a place on the top-5 chart *nearly* since release, Star Trek Attack Wing has finally dropped off the top-5 sellers, entirely:

1 - Warhammer 40k - Games Workshop
2 - Star Wars X-Wing - Fantasy Flight Games
3 - Star Wars Armada - Fantasy Flight Games
4 - Warmachine - Privateer Press
5 - Hordes - Privateer Press


1 - Warhammer 40k - Games Workshop
2 - Star Wars X-Wing - Fantasy Flight Games
3 - Warmachine - Privateer Press
4 - D&D Attack Wing - WizKids/NECA
5 - Star Trek Attack Wing - WizKids/NECA


1 - Warhammer 40k - Games Workshop
2 - Star Wars X-Wing - Fantasy Flight Games
3 - Warmachine - Privateer Press
4 - Star Trek Attack Wing - WizKids/NECA
5 - Hordes - Privateer Press



1 - Warhammer 40k - Games Workshop
2 - Star Wars X-Wing - Fantasy Flight Games
3 - Star Trek Attack Wing - WizKids/NECA
4 - Warmachine - Privateer Press
5 - Hordes - Privateer Press
 
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Noah Sager
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And look at Armada. FFG is just rolling in dough.

I really wish FFG had the Star Trek license instead of WizKids.
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Larry DeStefano
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STAW is a good game WK definitely got some things wrong. And I say that as an OP player and lover of Star Trek and this game. It is a simple fact as far as I can tell, others may disagree to each his own.
The things that WK got wrong:

1) the costing formula for ships to simple and did not allow nuance to account for the different abilities of the ships and the way they play.

2) cost formula for the cards. to many cards over costed some under costed.

3) The BORG hurt the game a lot in my area. Period. I saw it happen even as I stayed in and tuffed it out even not playing Borg. The new Borg rules solved that problem but a lotta damages was done.

4) Bad photon torpedo mechanic (may be better with the Tong ship coming out, at least there on the right track now)

Some other points I'm sure I missed.

All said I still like the game and most of these problems are fixable, costing just needs a redo most time just minor 1-2 point adjustments.

Torps need a redo to make players actually use them....

But I will still be playing STAW long after WK drops them because I'm a trekker and I love the theme.
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Xander Fulton
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RequiemX wrote:
And look at Armada. FFG is just rolling in dough.

I really wish FFG had the Star Trek license instead of WizKids.


The really amazing thing is that Armada jumped right to #3 on release... and didn't even *budge* X-Wing from it's #2 spot.

Yeah, FFG has *got* to be loving that.

Compare to D&D Attack Wing, on release knocking Star Trek Attack Wing out of its place, and now neither of them in the top-5.

I do like Trek the better of the two for theme, but balance issues and power-creep have plagued this game since release, and that's a shame.
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Clearly the fact that WizKids continues to support it and are dumping even more resources into it than ever before is a clear sign it is "dead."

Why again are you here if you want it to be "dead" anyway?
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Larry DeStefano
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Dead may be a harsh word but it may lead to constructive criticism which can be a very good thing.

I remember when people complained and said the Borg were a problem (me included) and that generated a lot of heat. The simple truth, they were right and the Borg were changed.

of course then we had to hear about being "cry babies" and how we destroyed the Borg.
well a Borg player won nationals and I can enjoy playing Borg, which I did at my last 2 OP's (1-2) one loss super close for both games, in both OP's.

I do not want STAW to die, but if sales or standings are dropping for real we need to know it and just try to generate as much interest as we can in new players. Not an easy task (ask my local TO)

I'm hopping the saving grace for STAW will be a good thriving causal game market, to me that is where STAW can really shine.
 
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That list should be a top 10 considering Warmachine\Hordes are two sides of the same coin. zombie

Considering we're getting to the obscure ship releases I'm not surprised that sales might be lower.
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This is useless data. Are these ranked by units sold, profit, gut feelings? What are the actual values? How many datapoints? What geographic coverage?

You can't draw any meaningful conclusions on the health of the game from these lists without more information. For all we know, STAW has increased in sales, but other things have had greater gains.
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Trueflight Silverwing
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Oh no, it's dropped to 6th place after two years of being out. Considering the hundreds of games that seem to come out a year, I'd still say that's pretty good.
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Troy Mullineaux
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I really like the game, but am buying less of it. I don't really need another already done ship for the Nth time. It would be nice to see card packs and scenario packs. The figures are distressing I'm sure for Wiz Kids, I think FFG would have done a better job overall. That being said, I like Fleet Captains and have bought Hero Clix for seconds on the cheap. Having more redundancy may be costing them sales for STAW proper. I do like that Wiz Kids is doing more events and such, even giving them free online. Costing and torps seem biggest issues to me, fixable out of OP with minor bloodshed.
 
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Xander Fulton
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Ender02 wrote:
Oh no, it's dropped to 6th place after two years of being out. Considering the hundreds of games that seem to come out a year, I'd still say that's pretty good.


Yet it's progenitor game, X-Wing, has been out longer and has never budged from its #2 spot. And let's not even talk about WH40K's enduring run at the #1 spot.

As to 'hundreds of games' - I don't think you understand what you are reading. This is a list for non-collectible miniature games, only. IE., it's a fairly focused list that Attack Wing is falling out of.
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Quote:
The figures are distressing I'm sure for Wiz Kids


I highly doubt they are losing any sleep over STAW's sales. On the contrary, based on their support and continued improvements they seem to be interested in continuing to invest in it for the long haul.

They are making new sculpts for ships that didn't exist in Tactics all the time (this costs more of course than just using the existing molds). All of the prize ships for the Temporal Cold War are entirely new (Xindi).

As we've seen, they're putting more into even the existing models with the paint jobs on waves 17-19. That's surely costing them more than just continuing to use the original paint on ships like the Nebula class (for example).

In the last 6-8 months they've made various other improvements. We finally got the long-requested official acryllic templates. They set up the rules forum, and tried to respond to the various concerns and issues that have come up, both in general and at major events, as they see appropriate. They actually had Nationals/Worlds this year. They've tried to listen to our feedback where they could (DS9 crew pack, much-requested ships making it into waves, etc).

None of these are the behaviors of someone observing a dying game and simply trying to squeeze as much out of it as they can. They could have easily done none of these things, saved themselves time & money, and still sold ships at a profitable rate.

Quote:
I think FFG would have done a better job overall


I don't. I don't believe that FFG could have handled the sheer breadth of the Star Trek universe as compared to Star Wars.

And glaciers move faster than their release schedule, which works fine for Star Wars, but in a universe with as many interesting/popular ships as Star Trek it would just be far too slow.

Quote:
Oh no, it's dropped to 6th place after two years of being out. Considering the hundreds of games that seem to come out a year, I'd still say that's pretty good.


Really, I wouldn't let him get under your skin too much. He's been claiming the game is dying for a long time. Wasn't true then and it still isn't true now. He wants to hate on it, I suppose that's his business.
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Evan
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Honestly, I figured this would happen, just because Armada is doing insanely well, so simply adding it to last quarter's numbers would have been be enough to bump STAW from the top 5.

Even so, the numbers are a little surprising; I figured one Attack Wing game would still be in the top 5, and I suspected that if another game did seize the 5th place spot, it'd be Imperial Assault.

In any case, we shouldn't worry. For starters, this is of course a relative ranking. Maybe the Attack Wings are doing worse, or maybe Hordes (dammit I had to type that like five times before I stopped writing "Horsed") is just doing better. Also, there may not be "hundreds" of other minis games, but there are still plenty that are thriving and profitable. Heck, last fall ICV2 attributed 2014's growth in minis sales to Wizkids, FFG, and some big turnaround by Warhammer Fantasy, a game that still has yet to make it back into the top 5.

So yeah. Attack Wing isn't dominating the market to the extent that it once was, but there's a big gulf between "not in the top 5" and "dead." This reminds me of the time that people were pronouncing it dead just because it stopped being one of the 50 most talked-about games on BGG.
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George Barnes
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I wish they would do a top 10 or a top 100 top 5 leaves a lot of questions.
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Xander Fulton
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1374Phantom wrote:
I wish they would do a top 10 or a top 100 top 5 leaves a lot of questions.


AFAIK, they do - you just have to buy the magazine for it. (Or be a retailer or distributor, in which case you get it free)
 
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Val Cassotta
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Maybe we'll get lucky and some kind distributor / retailer will post the top 10

While STAW clearly isn't dead, it is certainly in a gradually decaying orbit.

I hope they can turn it into a slingshot and pickup some momentum, though I doubt it
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Bob Estabrook
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Just from what I've seen locally, WarmaHordes is exploding. We've had no loss--actually, very slow growth--in our attack wing group, and during our monthly OP this past Saturday, our regular 7-10 players were dwarfed by whatever the WarmaHordes event was in the same FLGS. They had more than 40 players! For a game that up until recently had been no more than the nicotine patch for recovering GW addicts, and the store was packed with them. So yeah, having them pull ahead of STAW in whatever analysis we're talking about? I'm not worried in the slightest.
 
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Quote:
While STAW clearly isn't dead, it is certainly in a gradually decaying orbit.


We don't really know enough to make that sort of assumption. All we know is that on this particular list for this particular posting it happens to be at least #6, which is still good. The previous iteration, Hordes was off the top 5, but is back this time. We have no idea what that is. For all we know it could be growth of Hordes and not decay of STAW. What if they flip again on the next? Is Hordes dying then?

Everything about the game really suggests the opposite -- that it continues to get better. If anyone is hoping for it to suddenly die, that's just not going to happen. The game is going to continue to be around and getting new releases for quite some time.
 
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Glad to see Warmachine/Hordes doing well again. Quite a fun game with an excellent story line.

Was pretty well balanced (at least when I had played it a few years back).
 
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Peter Knapp
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Just a couple of thoughts:

They wouldn't plough so many resources if the game was dead surely? - releasing more waves, OPs and the like. If it wasn't making money, they wouldn't make it?

If something isn't in the top 5 does it mean it's dead?

Also, is the top 5 in terms of units, sales value etc? Armada has higher costs per pack, and in X-Wing there have been a few large base ships and the Imperial Raider due out, so are they preorders for a ship that costs more than an entire wave of Attack Wing?

And as much as I like Star Trek, the fan base for Star Wars has got to be far bigger?! New films about to be released - Star Wars fans (and I also like Star Wars and collect Armada heavily too) are going through a boom right now. So games like X-Wing and Armada are going to sell well for a long time.

Problems people have with Attack Wing seem to be mostly at Regional/National/World level. In our local scene, if we want to try something else, we do. If we like it, we carry on doing it. If we fancy a change of scene, we try something else. Either way, we have a laugh. Some OP scenarios we found more fun than others - sometimes you win some...

 
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Maybe they'll stop releasing useless purchases.

As poor or over costed some things in x-wing may be, at least every ship is seen in regular play. At least half the ships in attack wing may as well go in the trash once you've taken out the one upgrade you bought it for.

Half is probably optimistic - I don't know the % of ships with 5+ pav.
 
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NO KILL I
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Moppi Wurm
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Want to see a dead game? Look at the Hobbit. And even that game is kept alive by its dedicated community.

More important for me would be to see wizkids' sales. As long as it's profitable, we can hope for new releases. I play only because of the theme, that's why I hope there will be loads of ships in the future, even if the tournament players don't care for these
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Troy Mullineaux
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I've heard the lament of Star Trek fans at the Event Center, also seen lots of STAW played there. I do agree the release rate would have been glacial. Also agree about half of what I've bought may never see the table. OP is really brisk, but not for me. Dead, not but dizzy. They are responsive and hopefully will find the path back. I hope it continues and we see more for a long time.
 
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Roy Stephens
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Dead? Nope. Not in my area (San Jose CA). We still have good crowds for the events I am involved in, as well as a couple of stores starting events for the first time.

Not on the thriving Facebook page, where all the fans and discussions migrated to from here. For every "well, that's it. I'm leaving the game. Check out my sale on Ebay." post, there is a "Hi all! I just got this game and love it! Here are the ships I have now. I love Romulans and Federation. What 3 ships should I buy next?" post.

It may not top the charts any more, but, it definitely has a devoted fan base who are still continuing to support it. I just met a woman this past Saturday at the game store who was telling me she just got the starter and a couple of ships and is wanting to learn to play. I told her about our next OP happening this saturday (Q Continuum OP2 at Game Kastle Santa Clara, 7/25 at noon. Shameless plug ) and that I would have a pre-set demo table available to teach the game on while the tournament was going on.

X-Wing will always rank higher as (1) it was first on scene and more people invested their limited gaming budgets in it first and (2) Star Wars as a brand carries a LOT more weight these days. Star Trek can't even get a new TV series started and all it has right now are movies that are rather divisive among the fans themselves, and aren't even represented in any of the WK games, except for Star Trek: Expeditions, which isn't a good game...

For all it has stacked against it; lack of IP support like TV and movies, a fan community that loves to hate, being second to the party behind the juggernaut that is Star Wars X-Wing... I'd say STAW is still doing remarkably well.



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