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Subject: So recently Obama was saying that... rss

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In order to win in the Middle East we need to win with idealism. Make our way of thinking more appealing to win over the hearts and minds of the people that are openly hostile towards us.

Do you think this would work? Are these people to set in their ways for this to work? They seem to be rock solid over the last couple thousand years...

What do you think?
 
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How about we do this one a bit different and you tell us what you think first.
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TheDashi wrote:
In order to win in the Middle East we need to win with idealism. Make our way of thinking more appealing to win over the hearts and minds of the people that are openly hostile towards us.

Do you think this would work? Are these people to set in their ways for this to work? They seem to be rock solid over the last couple thousand years...

What do you think?

I think we can't win over the middle east by making our way of thinking more appealing. Nor can we win it over with sporadic bombing campaigns, drone attacks, and brush wars. I think the Muslim world needs to go through its version of the reformation, and come to sanity on its own terms.

Keen to hear your two cents.
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Drew1365 wrote:
I wonder exactly which way of thinking he means when he says "our"?

I presume this refers to broad western values of representative democracy, independent judiciary, and religious pluralism.
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Drew1365 wrote:
sbszine wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
I wonder exactly which way of thinking he means when he says "our"?

I presume this refers to broad western values of representative democracy, independent judiciary, and religious pluralism.


Oh, so not his own, then.

Yeah, he's basically Pol Pot. The last straw was when he changed the currency from the U.S. dollar to human skulls.
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Drew1365 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
In order to win in the Middle East we need to win with idealism. Make our way of thinking more appealing to win over the hearts and minds of the people that are openly hostile towards us.


I wonder exactly which way of thinking he means when he says "our"?


By "our" he was indirectly quoting Mr. Obama.

Ferret
 
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sbszine wrote:
Yeah, he's basically Pol Pot. The last straw was when he changed the currency from the U.S. dollar to human skulls.

if obama was pol pot right-wingers would applaud him for forcing pussified liberal urbanites to work in teh fields~
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TheDashi wrote:
In order to win in the Middle East we need to win with idealism. Make our way of thinking more appealing to win over the hearts and minds of the people that are openly hostile towards us.

Do you think this would work? Are these people to set in their ways for this to work? They seem to be rock solid over the last couple thousand years...

What do you think?


He'll do about as well as his predecessor.

A friend of mine calls Obama "Bush 2.0" and it does seem apt at times.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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sbszine wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
In order to win in the Middle East we need to win with idealism. Make our way of thinking more appealing to win over the hearts and minds of the people that are openly hostile towards us.

Do you think this would work? Are these people to set in their ways for this to work? They seem to be rock solid over the last couple thousand years...

What do you think?

I think we can't win over the middle east by making our way of thinking more appealing. Nor can we win it over with sporadic bombing campaigns, drone attacks, and brush wars. I think the Muslim world needs to go through its version of the reformation, and come to sanity on its own terms.

Keen to hear your two cents.


Noble intentions, indeed. How long of a time frame, and how many deaths of Westerners, will that take?
 
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chrisnd wrote:
sbszine wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
In order to win in the Middle East we need to win with idealism. Make our way of thinking more appealing to win over the hearts and minds of the people that are openly hostile towards us.

Do you think this would work? Are these people to set in their ways for this to work? They seem to be rock solid over the last couple thousand years...

What do you think?

I think we can't win over the middle east by making our way of thinking more appealing. Nor can we win it over with sporadic bombing campaigns, drone attacks, and brush wars. I think the Muslim world needs to go through its version of the reformation, and come to sanity on its own terms.

Keen to hear your two cents.


Noble intentions, indeed. How long of a time frame, and how many deaths of Westerners, will that take?


My guess is that it will be less than there were during the west's version of the reformation.
 
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chrisnd wrote:
...and how many deaths of Westerners, will that take?

The Muslim world is already changing and the number of locals dying, both Muslims and non-Muslims, far exceeds the number of Westerners or other outsiders killed.
 
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batman wrote:
]

My guess is that it will be less than there were during the west's version of the reformation.


Why? The 30 Years War led to the deaths of roughly 25% of the populations of Europe. Not directly by battle but everything from collateral damage to starvation, etc. That's a lot of people but it was 30 years. And medical science could likely have reduced those deaths by maybe 80%, like now.

Unless you mean specific burnings, executions because of Protestant beliefs. That's a tiny, tiny fraction of what happens every month for the last decade or two in car bombings, bus bombings, market bombings, mass beheadings, mass executions, etc. The Church back then was kindergarten level in comparison to the Islamic radicals.

Realistically if the Muslim faith actually went through a reform then only a foolish optimist wouldn't factor in WMD's as a primary tool. Add that to the difference between the Church back then and the Jihadists now -- the Church didn't declare that anyone not bowing to them had to die and that killing them was a glorious ticket to the hereafter -- and I'd guess the toll would be many, many, many times the deaths back then.
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Carl Parsons
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Oh, I think there would be plenty of deaths, but I also think that these would be mostly contained to the areas of conflict and wouldn't have anywhere near as big of an impact on westerners. That area of the world is so tribalized that most of them would be too busy with their immediate neighbors to worry about what's going on across the ocean.
 
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