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San Juan (second edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Habour Overly Powerful rss

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Martin Holden
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It appears that with the Harbour you get both the 'money' and a VP each time you trade. A Victory point every time you trade! This is much too powerful in my opinion. I would suggest a simple variant in this situation. Either you take cards in the usual way or you place the good under the Harbour for a VP.

I think if my understanding is right that with the Harbour you may only place one card under it per trading action. If therefore you are entitled to sell more than one good (either as Trader or through an appropriate building) then you would sell one for cards (cash) and one for a VP. This will enter into the spirit of Puerto Rico whereby you will be effectively shipping indigo or anything else which sells for 1.


 
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Mik Svellov
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First of all: if the Habour was considered too strong, it would have been changed in the new edition. After all, it was first published in 2009.

The card that will give you a VP at the end of the game is the same card you will receive as a Good. So you don't get both: you receive a Good and this you will keep in your hand as money (or a potential bulding) or you immediately push it under the Habour as a VP. Of course, if you receive more than one card for the sale, you will keep the others in you hand.
 
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Martin Holden
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Mik thanks for your reply. It seems from what you say that I may have misunderstood what the Harbour. You seem to be saying that you receive either the card (cash) or the VP, which was what I was advocating in my variant.

Also is it the good which goes under the Harbour or the cards you would otherwise take into your hand for selling the good. It makes a difference as that suggests you could sell Silver say for 3 and then put the 3 cards you receive under your Harbour for 3 VPs.
 
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Ben Holle
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No, I am pretty sure Martin is correct in his original post. Each trading phase you can tuck one of the goods that you sell under the Harbor for a VP but you still get the cards for selling it too.

It is indeed one of the best cards in the game. But there are quite a few very good cards. Library, Quarry (especially with Carpenter), Prefecture, the card that produces when Councillor happens.

If my opp gets an early harbor, I absolutely stop Produce / Trade. Make them do all the work. Get a Coffee or Silver out so you can piggy-back on their cycle. The 4 cost one that gets you an extra card when trading is a good one too. Hit Councillor hard looking for your own harbor or something else realy good. The card that lets you trade in 1-2 cards during Governor is really useful for digging, it is cheap too.

I play almost exclusively 2er so not sure how well this extends to 3+.
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mjh1234 wrote:
Mik thanks for your reply. It seems from what you say that I may have misunderstood what the Harbour. You seem to be saying that you receive either the card (cash) or the VP, which was what I was advocating in my variant.

Also is it the good which goes under the Harbour or the cards you would otherwise take into your hand for selling the good. It makes a difference as that suggests you could sell Silver say for 3 and then put the 3 cards you receive under your Harbour for 3 VPs.
Just to be sure, you can normally only put one card underneath per Trader phase. If you sell 3 goods, only one of them is going underneath the Harbor.

That said, it's powerful, but at cost of 5, it seems appropriate.

In a 2p game of first edition with the expansion, someone managed to get a Chapel early and shove a card underneath almost every Governor phase. These VP generating cards can be strong.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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ackmondual wrote:

In a 2p game of first edition with the expansion, someone managed to get a Chapel early and shove a card underneath almost every Governor phase. These VP generating cards can be strong.


And I think something that makes the Harbour a better card is that it makes these point accumulators more accessible to more players.
 
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Ben Holle
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ackmondual wrote:

That said, it's powerful, but at cost of 5, it seems appropriate.


Is it 5 in the 2nd edition? It is 4 in the first (in the expansion). I just read on a different thread that Prefecture now costs 4; it used to be 3. Probably still a good card but a little less so.

I had a 2er a couple weeks ago and built Harbor 2nd build and Chapel mid-game. I hit both of them pretty heavily but only won by 1 point. Opponent played Quarry and Construction Hut and eventually Prefecture. He built whenever possible and dug with Councillor. He was able to catch me with no build or a bad-build (just to keep up) a couple times and in the meantime was dropping Statue/Hero/and the 6-building that gives a point for every 4 points.

I think that is the way to play against harbor.

I can see this not working as well with 3+ players because the harbor player will get some help from others choosing Production/Trader.
 
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bholle wrote:
ackmondual wrote:

That said, it's powerful, but at cost of 5, it seems appropriate.


Is it 5 in the 2nd edition? It is 4 in the first (in the expansion). I just read on a different thread that Prefecture now costs 4; it used to be 3. Probably still a good card but a little less so.

I had a 2er a couple weeks ago and built Harbor 2nd build and Chapel mid-game. I hit both of them pretty heavily but only won by 1 point. Opponent played Quarry and Construction Hut and eventually Prefecture. He built whenever possible and dug with Councillor. He was able to catch me with no build or a bad-build (just to keep up) a couple times and in the meantime was dropping Statue/Hero/and the 6-building that gives a point for every 4 points.

I think that is the way to play against harbor.

I can see this not working as well with 3+ players because the harbor player will get some help from others choosing Production/Trader.
Harbor is 4. The only 5-cost purple buildings with the expansion are Goldsmith, Library, Hero... I believe that's it? That's still "4 choose 3" concerning the Residence.
 
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David B
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Great Dane wrote:


The card that will give you a VP at the end of the game is the same card you will receive as a Good. So you don't get both: you receive a Good and this you will keep in your hand as money (or a potential bulding) or you immediately push it under the Habour as a VP. Of course, if you receive more than one card for the sale, you will keep the others in you hand.



Uhhhhh. No
 
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Jorge
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Yes, the Harbor's a good card, albeit there are some points to consider:

i) It costs 4, therefore it's expensive, and does not improve your economy (i.e., card drawing) at all. So, it will slow you down and set you back if you construct it early on. If your opponents have some means to accelerate the game, that would be a problem. At the same cost (in the new edition), a Prefecture would start giving you extra cards in the game.

ii) You get a VP when trading, yes. If your opponents take both Craftsman and Trader for you, then yes, it is very strong. That's how you counterbalance it: let the player owning the Harbor take at least one of the two roles. If you Craft and Trade for him, then you're giving him an action to do something else.

So, I still consider it a good card, just not overpowered. I don't find any cards "overpowered" in the new version, after nerfing the previously-strong cards.
 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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pfctsqr wrote:
Great Dane wrote:


The card that will give you a VP at the end of the game is the same card you will receive as a Good. So you don't get both: you receive a Good and this you will keep in your hand as money (or a potential bulding) or you immediately push it under the Habour as a VP. Of course, if you receive more than one card for the sale, you will keep the others in you hand.



Uhhhhh. No


At first I was all like "Mik can't be wrong, it's impossible". And now I wonder just what was he drinking when he wrote that...(one of the goods you are selling goes under the harbour, after you sell it. Income is not affected)
 
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David B
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apotheos wrote:
pfctsqr wrote:
Great Dane wrote:


The card that will give you a VP at the end of the game is the same card you will receive as a Good. So you don't get both: you receive a Good and this you will keep in your hand as money (or a potential bulding) or you immediately push it under the Habour as a VP. Of course, if you receive more than one card for the sale, you will keep the others in you hand.



Uhhhhh. No


At first I was all like "Mik can't be wrong, it's impossible". And now I wonder just what was he drinking when he wrote that...(one of the goods you are selling goes under the harbour, after you sell it. Income is not affected)



His response does not even correctly define a "good".
 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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pfctsqr wrote:
apotheos wrote:
pfctsqr wrote:
Great Dane wrote:


The card that will give you a VP at the end of the game is the same card you will receive as a Good. So you don't get both: you receive a Good and this you will keep in your hand as money (or a potential bulding) or you immediately push it under the Habour as a VP. Of course, if you receive more than one card for the sale, you will keep the others in you hand.



Uhhhhh. No


At first I was all like "Mik can't be wrong, it's impossible". And now I wonder just what was he drinking when he wrote that...(one of the goods you are selling goes under the harbour, after you sell it. Income is not affected)



His response does not even correctly define a "good".


I propose a petition to compel him to change his BGG username to Adequate Dane.
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