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Subject: Is Hakkaa Päälle! really a core module, or just a wannabe? rss

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BattleSchool Managing Editor
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I think it merits the designation.
http://asl-battleschool.blogspot.ca/2015/07/hakkaa-paalle-ro...

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Mattias Elfström
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It is a core module.
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Chris Drake
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If the French can have their own core module then why not the Finns?
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Gamesmeister99 wrote:
If the French can have their own core module then why not the Finns?


Some might argue that the French army was huge compared to the Finnish army. The French had thousands of tanks in 1940, when the Germans invaded. The Finns had a single armoured car when the Russians crashed through the frontier in 1939. France also had a big empire stretching across the globe, garrisoned by French and colonial soldiers. Finland, well Finland had Karelia, until the Russians took it, twice, the second time for good.

That said, I think that the French could have been rolled into Doomed Battalions. There are a lot of commonalities, and the Belgians and French fought side by side in 1940.
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Mattias Elfström
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Gamesmeister99 wrote:
If the French can have their own core module then why not the Finns?

I'm still wondering why the Americans have core modules - they were not even in the whole war!
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Stephen Stewart
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I was hoping for 2 boards at least.
Not sure why not more than 1 especially for the price.
Even the last hurrah and other minor additions had 2 board and given the time to get this out... It just baffles me.

Reprint no less.

Im happy for the Finns, but feel a bit jaded for the price.
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Eoin Corrigan
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Given that we get four or five new official boards a year in the Action Packs and Winter Offensive Packs, the sole board doesn't at all bother me. In fact, I feel as if the new boards are passing me by in a blur.

I think HP is a superb addition to the system. Totally core. And let's remember that Paratrooper, Partisan and The Last Hurrah are / were all core and are much lighter products.

Also, as always, great write-up, Chris!
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Klas Malmstrom
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ASLChampion wrote:
I was hoping for 2 boards at least.
Not sure why not more than 1 especially for the price.
Even the last hurrah and other minor additions had 2 board and given the time to get this out... It just baffles me.

I think that the main reason is that all the scenarios were designed several years ago with the maps in existence back then.

IMO, it would not make much sense to include a map that none of the scenarios used, YMMW.

And I would also guess that re-designing a scenario to use a new board wasn't considered a attractive enough option, at least that would be my guess.
 
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Greg Taylor
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Chris Doary wrote:
I think it merits the designation.
http://asl-battleschool.blogspot.ca/2015/07/hakkaa-paalle-ro...

Where do you stand?

Hello Chris,

Based on the updates to the rules and the new ski counters I'd say it's core. I'm not liking those new chapter dividers, though; need a magnifying glass to read them...
 
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Mattias Elfström
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Where do you stand on Patatrooper, Partisan!, The Last Hurrah and Hollow Legions?
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Andy Beaton
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It's a core module, but I don't think it needed to be.
It could have been some kind of HASL. We didn't get many new rules and we got a lot of chrome. I think counters for individual vehicles are kind of excessive.
I don't think I'm getting my money's worth for this one, as much fun as it is.
 
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Michael
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We few,we happy few,we band of brothers;For he today that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother: be he ne’er so vile;And gentlemen in England now-abed Shall think themself accurs’d they were no here That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.
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Mattias wrote:
Where do you stand on Paratrooper, Partisan!, The Last Hurrah and Hollow Legions?


I don't stand, I....

Fall from the sky by Parachute...
Hide in the bushes for ambush...
Ride into battle on a horse...
Eat sand as the Italians...



sorry I couldn't resist
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Klas Malmstrom
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Why does it matter whether we/MMP consideres it a "core" module or not?

I.e., what is the import?

As for new rules, that can hardly be a qualifier, CdG and HL did not have any new rules beyond chapter H and the updated Fire Lane rules, IIRC.
 
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BattleSchool Managing Editor
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
ASLChampion wrote:
I was hoping for 2 boards at least.
Not sure why not more than 1 especially for the price.
Even the last hurrah and other minor additions had 2 board and given the time to get this out... It just baffles me.

I think that the main reason is that all the scenarios were designed several years ago with the maps in existence back then.

IMO, it would not make much sense to include a map that none of the scenarios used, YMMW.

And I would also guess that re-designing a scenario to use a new board wasn't considered a attractive enough option, at least that would be my guess.


IIRC, Toumo Lukkari mentioned that almost of the scenarios were designed by 2006. (Chris Olden's design is an exception.)

However, given the nine-year interval between then and publication, there was ample opportunity for people to step forward and offer to design a few scenarios around a new "wilderness" board, etc.

IOW, people need to get involved to make it happen.
 
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
Why does it matter whether we/MMP consideres it a "core" module or not?

I.e., what is the import?

As for new rules, that can hardly be a qualifier, CdG and HL did not have any new rules beyond chapter H and the updated Fire Lane rules, IIRC.


1. Well, MMP has made it a core module, which means that unlike HASL modules, they presumably have made a commitment to make it available in the future; i.e. it's not a one-off.

Granted it is possible that the new rule pages and chapter dividers included with HP could be rolled into the next iteration of the ASLRB, and the entire Finnish (and expanded Russian) OBs could be stuffed into BV4.

2. From a player's perspective, designating a module as "core" implies that the module is a prerequisite for general ASL play, rather than a historical treatment of a particular subject. Given that HP contains rules that are not currently included with the ASLRB2, the module is akin to Rising Sun in that ownership of Rising Sun is required even if you never want to step foot in the Pacific Theatre (e.g. to play a scenario pitting the French against the French in the jungles of central Africa). In fact, because HP contains rules, as well as Russian and German equipment required for the ETO, it is arguably more of a core requirement than Rising Sun is.

Personally, I don't care whether HP is, or shouldn't be, a core module. I'm just pleased to own it. Another ASL module means a new flavour to explore. And given the time and effort required to bring HP to my doorstep, I have no qualms about the price tag. (It cost less than a round of golf for my wife and I at the course across the street from us.)
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Greg Taylor
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klasmalmstrom wrote:

As for new rules, that can hardly be a qualifier, CdG and HL did not have any new rules beyond chapter H and the updated Fire Lane rules, IIRC.


Doomed Battalions and the Human Wave rules and counters?
The only reason I say this is I spent an hour hunting for the HL counters for my BV1 marker tray.
You’re right; it doesn’t really matter, except for personal preference. As HP takes place on the Eastern Front, it’s automatically core for me. I won’t get much use out of Rising Sun (I’ll probably never play PTO; I’m not a big fan of creeping through the jungle); the only beach landings I’ll do is at Ozereyka Bay...
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Marc Hanna
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Mattias wrote:
Gamesmeister99 wrote:
If the French can have their own core module then why not the Finns?

I'm still wondering why the Americans have core modules - they were not even in the whole war!


oh cmon. as if the Finns had enough engagements to merit this huge module of 6 different self rallying squad types, scores of AFVs that barely ran for a few days, etc.

Hakka Paille is a complete stretch of the imagination to be a core module.

See the review of this module on Desperation Morale site.

Do we really think that the Finns suffered more casualties in WW2 (than the Americans) fighting the Russians endlessly with their superheroes? Perhaps it's possible, but seems unlikely.

I'm sure your comment must be totally tongue in cheek
 
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Mattias Elfström
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Footnote 37 of chapter A says it much better than I can. Of course HP is a core module.
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Mattias Elfström
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And just to make sure there is no misunderstanding - I do think the American modules should be core too.
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BattleSchool Managing Editor
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Mattias wrote:
Footnote 37 of chapter A says it much better than I can. Of course HP is a core module.


For those without access...

Quote:
Footnote 37. 25.7 THE FINNS: No nationality can lay claim to having fought as valiant and skillful a defense of their homeland as the Finns of 1939-44. Extremely individualistic, patriotic, and ruthless, totally at ease in severe weather conditions, the Finnish soldier was tactically superior to his foe and fanatic in his resistance. The superiority of the Finnish soldier was based upon a deeply ingrained quality of "sisu"—determination and individuality. This trait was evidenced in combat where the Finnish soldier rallied quickly and often without the intervention of his leaders. However, the Finns did not share the goals of their German co-belligerents and for political and strategic reasons usually refused to take offensive action after 1941. Finland was not one of the Axis powers, and any reference in the rules to "Axis" does not in­clude the Finns. Some rules, however, specifically exempting Finns from Axis Extreme Winter penalties have been retained to avoid the appearance of any change in game play.
The Finns fought three different wars from 1939 to 1945:
·Winter War (vs Soviet Union) 30 November 1939-13 March 1940
·Continuation War (vs Soviet Union) 25 June 1941-4 September 1944
·Lapland War (vs Germany) 15 September 1944-27 April 1945
The Continuation War can be roughly divided into three phases: the Finnish Attack to regain territories lost in the Winter War and later into Russian Kare­lia for strategically advantageous defensive lines (7/41-12/41); the Static War (42-5/44); and the Soviet Summer Offensive (6/44-8/44).
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Quote:
Do we really think that the Finns suffered more casualties in WW2 (than the Americans) fighting the Russians endlessly with their superheroes? Perhaps it's possible, but seems unlikely.


Of course not!

But the Russians came close, according to Wiki.

Winter War: Russian casualties and losses
126,875-167,976 dead or missing[F 7][15][16]
188,671 wounded, concussed or burned[15]
5,572 captured[17]
3,543 tanks[F 8][18][19][20]
261–515 aircraft[F 9][20][21]
321,000-363,000 total casualties

Continuation War: Russian casualties and losses
Finnish estimate based on Soviet data:
265,000 dead or missing
(including 64,000 captured)
385,000 wounded
190,000 hospitalized due to sickness[9]
4,000–7,000 civilian deaths
Total
~835,000 casualties[9]
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