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Subject: Does this game have terrible rules? rss

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G Wintner
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Apologies for clogging the forums with this post, and maybe this is an odd question to ask, but I'm getting genuinely concerned here before plunging into this game:

Does this game have terrible rules? I'm hardly an expert, but I don't remember seeing another game get this many rules questions posted on BGG immediately out of the gate. Then there was a review I saw today on the Dice Tower from the Board Game Corner guys saying that the game was quite difficult to understand from the manual ...

So:

Poll
Are Viceroy's rules indecipherable?
Yes! God, yes!
No, but there are tons of edge cases that aren't addressed in the manual.
No, but there are a few edge cases that aren't addressed in the manual.
No, they're simple to understand for intelligent people like myself.
      120 answers
Poll created by gwintner


Thanks!
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Derry Salewski
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I think if you go to the forums of any mildly popular game that hits a couple thousand people at once you're going to see a similar flurry of rules questions.

Many of them will be redundant.

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Eric Booth
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Good lord I almost Florida'd this poll. Rules are very easy to understand.
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Ian Noble
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The only thing that gave me pause as I went through the rulebook was all the different ways to score points. Then I saw that everything was summarized on the back of the book.
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Are you genuinely concerned??? Just wait, the game isn't going anywhere... I don't think these posts come close to games with rules issues. Try Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Myth, or The Guns of Gettysburgas examples.

I've made a couple of mistakes, but I was at fault both times. My only critique is that they employ a "wall of text" in a couple of places, but everything is there.
 
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James Mathias
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The rules are dead simple. The game play (once learned) is fast and flowing.

The game is excellent.

However, the rulebook as printed is poorly written, and organized. This makes initial learning, and later referencing of the rules more difficult than necessary.

There has been some errata for a few of the law cards, which can be found in the F.A.Q. in the file section of the game's page here on BGG. Which adds to the confusion.

Overall, this game is well worth owning/playing, so long as you can get past the problems with the rulebook.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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jmathias wrote:
The rules are dead simple. The game play (once learned) is fast and flowing.

The game is excellent.

However, the rulebook as printed is poorly written, and organized. This makes initial learning, and later referencing of the rules more difficult than necessary.

There has been some errata for a few of the law cards, which can be found in the F.A.Q. in the file section of the game's page here on BGG. Which adds to the confusion.

Overall, this game is well worth owning/playing, so long as you can get past the problems with the rulebook.


Not trying to pick a fight, but weren't you referencing an outdated version of the rulebook in another thread or two?
 
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James Mathias
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rickert wrote:
jmathias wrote:
The rules are dead simple. The game play (once learned) is fast and flowing.

The game is excellent.

However, the rulebook as printed is poorly written, and organized. This makes initial learning, and later referencing of the rules more difficult than necessary.

There has been some errata for a few of the law cards, which can be found in the F.A.Q. in the file section of the game's page here on BGG. Which adds to the confusion.

Overall, this game is well worth owning/playing, so long as you can get past the problems with the rulebook.


Not trying to pick a fight, but weren't you referencing an outdated version of the rulebook in another thread or two?


I was, but now I'm talking about the KS printed version. Thanks!
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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jmathias wrote:
rickert wrote:
jmathias wrote:
The rules are dead simple. The game play (once learned) is fast and flowing.

The game is excellent.

However, the rulebook as printed is poorly written, and organized. This makes initial learning, and later referencing of the rules more difficult than necessary.

There has been some errata for a few of the law cards, which can be found in the F.A.Q. in the file section of the game's page here on BGG. Which adds to the confusion.

Overall, this game is well worth owning/playing, so long as you can get past the problems with the rulebook.


Not trying to pick a fight, but weren't you referencing an outdated version of the rulebook in another thread or two?


I was, but now I'm talking about the KS printed version. Thanks!


OK. Just wanted to make sure because the rulebook you described didn't sound like mine.
 
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Kelly N.
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I voted, "No, they're simple to understand even for dumb people like myself."

The rules are fine.
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Paul Johnson
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The ruleset is very, very simple, very light, and very easy to teach and learn.

The rulebook is the second worst rulebook I've ever read.
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G Wintner
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Khift wrote:
The ruleset is very, very simple, very light, and very easy to teach and learn.

The rulebook is the second worst rulebook I've ever read.


Hah! Sounds like you just summed it up. It's amazing that sometimes you can have actual rules that are very simple, but rulebooks that just do a bad job of conveying those rules.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Khift wrote:
The ruleset is very, very simple, very light, and very easy to teach and learn.

The rulebook is the second worst rulebook I've ever read.


And yet over half of those [polled think the rulebook is fine, as do I.
 
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Byron Campbell
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rickert wrote:
Khift wrote:
The ruleset is very, very simple, very light, and very easy to teach and learn.

The rulebook is the second worst rulebook I've ever read.


And yet over half of those [polled think the rulebook is fine, as do I.


The rules are easy to understand, despite the poor rulebook. There are no major holes in the rules, but there is a lack of emphasis on important details and turn structure.

And I have seen at least this volume of rules clarifications following launch of pretty much every game, especially Kickstarter games where many copies arrive simultaneously.
 
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G Wintner
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kittenhoarder wrote:
rickert wrote:
Khift wrote:
The ruleset is very, very simple, very light, and very easy to teach and learn.

The rulebook is the second worst rulebook I've ever read.


And yet over half of those [polled think the rulebook is fine, as do I.


The rules are easy to understand, despite the poor rulebook. There are no major holes in the rules, but there is a lack of emphasis on important details and turn structure.

And I have seen at least this volume of rules clarifications following launch of pretty much every game, especially Kickstarter games where many copies arrive simultaneously.


Okay, good to know. As I said, I'm hardly an expert. Thanks for the insight.
 
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Slightly Alive
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kittenhoarder wrote:
The rules are easy to understand, despite the poor rulebook. There are no major holes in the rules, but there is a lack of emphasis on important details and turn structure.


QFT.

There's a difference between bad rules and a bad rulebook. The rules itself for Viceroy are pretty straightforward and intuitive. The rulebook does a poor job laying them out in a way that people will understand how everything should play.

Personally, it took us three plays to get the rules right.

First time, we missed a few major things, especially receiving law cards at the beginning and being able to play down three cards during Development. We felt so bad about realizing our error halfway through the game that we stopped before the end and set up for a new game to fix the lack of law cards.

Second time, we played a mostly correct functional game, but were still missing the "play three cards" rule, and we continued to miss small but nice rule about gaining a gem when you complete a single-colored circle.

Third time, a few days of looking over the forums and re-reading the rulebook later, we played again and, to the best of my knowledge, got everything right.

Hopefully somebody on BGG does a rules rewrite, or hopefully from here on, people can mostly teach from their own experience, because learning from the book definitely requires patience.

...patience I feel is well-rewarded. It's rare we'll try to play a single game three times in a week (maybe four after tonight), and in the third game with all the rules right, the game absolutely came alive and was one of the most fun times I've had with a game in the past couple months.
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Olli Juhala
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Biggest issue in the rulebook is a lack of sub-chapters, so your attention would be better drawn to details. In our first play we missed both rewards for completing a single colour circle, and on our first two plays we missed the proper fifth level procedure as well as the entire painting part with gems. I think all of these sections could use their own subheader, as the rulebook text is really quite dense.
 
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Jason
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Shader10 wrote:
Biggest issue in the rulebook is a lack of sub-chapters, so your attention would be better drawn to details. In our first play we missed both rewards for completing a single colour circle, and on our first two plays we missed the proper fifth level procedure as well as the entire painting part with gems. I think all of these sections could use their own subheader, as the rulebook text is really quite dense.


I was teaching the game last night after not playing it for a while, and holy cow the fifth level stuff was frustrating. It's scattered out in three different places in the rules: one for not playing fifth level law cards, one for how much to pay to play a fifth level card and one for what rewards you get from playing a fifth level cards. The structure is probably fine for learning (perhaps better for learning than what I would propose), but it's difficult for reference.
 
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