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Subject: Latest update: pumpkin dude rss

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Rick S
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I got tired of waiting for someone else to solve the puzzle...
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Jonah Rees
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Good work bigblock! Really like that dude and guessing it's something to do with the new KS.
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Tom Howard
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Shoulda checked the kickstarter comments... I posted this about an hour after the update.

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that Matt
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jonahmaul wrote:
Good work bigblock! Really like that dude and guessing it's something to do with the new KS.

Yep

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super...
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Jonah Rees
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tumorous wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Good work bigblock! Really like that dude and guessing it's something to do with the new KS.

Yep

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super...


I've read the update but there's nothing in there that confirms the new KS?!
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Rick S
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jonahmaul wrote:
tumorous wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Good work bigblock! Really like that dude and guessing it's something to do with the new KS.

Yep

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super...


I've read the update but there's nothing in there that confirms the new KS?!


It may be a Gencon release...
 
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that Matt
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jonahmaul wrote:
tumorous wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Good work bigblock! Really like that dude and guessing it's something to do with the new KS.

Yep

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super...


I've read the update but there's nothing in there that confirms the new KS?!

Oh, new? I haven't heard anything about a new SDE KS. This is still about the Forgotten King base rewards, the Pumpkin Patch.
 
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Mark Reynolds
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I think Rick S. may be correct - they said somewhere that they would have a GenCon surprise. I'll know come Friday!
 
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that Matt
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Oh, well then.

 
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Jonah Rees
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They've also said that they'll be running a Kickstarter for SDE: Forgotten King Legends which will be the campaign mode for SDE (and whatever extras come with it).
 
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that Matt
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Well they have said they're going to put the campaign mode into an expansion called Super Dungeon Legends.

Whether that will be a Kickstarter or not, I haven't seen, but I'd kind of assume yes. Minis games keep raking in the cash on Kickstarter.
 
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Jonah Rees
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I'm 99% sure that it was confirmed during the last KS (in the comments sections) that Legends would be a KS though my google-fu is weak so I cannot find it. As Matt says though mini games keep cashing in on the success of KS (which you can't really blame companies for, they are a business after all) and I imagine Legends will almost certainly come with new Warbands/expansion(s).
 
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Honestly, Kickstarter is a pretty good fit for the minis industry in general and I think a lot of people overestimate how big or successful these companies are through Kickstarter. A lot of these games simply have production values that would be far too risky to produce without the assurance Kickstarter provides. I'd love to know how much net profit actually comes out of these things, because I suspect even the ones going way over the minimum are mostly just determining how large of an initial print run they can afford.

It's easy to feel like these games are titans, but when it comes to board games, even the giants are dwarves when compared to things like movies and videogames. The one big advantage the industry has in those monetary counts is that its an industry people are willing to pay a premium on with some very high pledge to backer ratios in general.
 
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Jonah Rees
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LunarSol wrote:
I'd love to know how much net profit actually comes out of these things, because I suspect even the ones going way over the minimum are mostly just determining how large of an initial print run they can afford.


Guillotine Games set their targets for Zombicide deliberately low knowing they would surpass the amount because the more % over the total you get the more likely you are to appear on the front page.

jwreschnig wrote:
But in particular, if SPM were running them better - like, say, had a CSR for the duration of the campaign, had good QA/QC processes, and talked about anything other than delays and future product announcements (sometimes both at once!) - then maybe I wouldn't care. But that's the state we're in.


SDE is easily the best KS I have been involved in. The models are good (for SDE quality, they're certainly not miniature quality) and the regular updates excellent. I've not had to deal directly with any customer service representatives though as there haven't been any issues with my deliveries.
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Jonah Rees
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jwreschnig wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Guillotine Games set their targets for Zombicide deliberately low knowing they would surpass the amount because the more % over the total you get the more likely you are to appear on the front page.... SDE is easily the best KS I have been involved in.

When the bar is "not borderline fraud," there shouldn't be bragging rights or plaudits for reaching it.


Not sure whether you mean that in relation to Zombicide or SDE?!
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Magic Pink
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jonahmaul wrote:
jwreschnig wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Guillotine Games set their targets for Zombicide deliberately low knowing they would surpass the amount because the more % over the total you get the more likely you are to appear on the front page.... SDE is easily the best KS I have been involved in.

When the bar is "not borderline fraud," there shouldn't be bragging rights or plaudits for reaching it.


Not sure whether you mean that in relation to Zombicide or SDE?!


Kickstarter in general I would assume.
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Nicholas Kelsch
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jwreschnig wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Guillotine Games set their targets for Zombicide deliberately low knowing they would surpass the amount because the more % over the total you get the more likely you are to appear on the front page.... SDE is easily the best KS I have been involved in.

When the bar is "not borderline fraud," there shouldn't be bragging rights or plaudits for reaching it.


Sodapop has learned the ways of fraudulent 'fake stretch goals' when they did Ninja All Stars and it almost doomed their entire KS because people saw it for what it was. They also had another run-in with fake stretches with Bunnies VS zombies where core components of the game which weree required for gameplay needed to be unlocked.
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Lunar Sol
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jwreschnig wrote:

There have been many major and minor additions to SDE without KS (Roxor, Von Drakk, Arena rules, individual miniatures, and now several warbands).

Even an analysis of the products that went through KS shouldn't be about how much profit they made, but about the proportion that went through KS vs retail channels and how many of the KS sales could have gone through retail. Basically, how much of the risk, opportunity cost, and externalities are just semi-secretly being shifted to customers? How much of any given KS is truly covering production requirements vs gamified advertisement spectacle? (A: Too much, and most of most of them.)

But in particular, if SPM were running them better - like, say, had a CSR for the duration of the campaign, had good QA/QC processes, and talked about anything other than delays and future product announcements (sometimes both at once!) - then maybe I wouldn't care. But that's the state we're in.

Sorry, I meant HEY LOOK MICROLABOR DISGUISED AS A PUZZLE VAGUELY HINTING AT NEW WAY TO SPEND MONEY.


Roxor, Von Drakk, and the rest of the 1st edition stuff was produced by CMoN. It's not a good measure of the production capital of Ninja Division.

I guess the difference is, yes, I'm totally aware that most of these companies are pushing risks to customers and I'm ok with that. Truth is, without the assurance of Kickstarter, most of these games wouldn't be made or they would with a lot more cut corners to keep from losing the company over a failure. I'd rather see risky ventures made under a system that helps mitigate the risks than see the board game market follow the paths that have driven the videogame market into a stagnant mire.
 
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Magic Pink
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nkelsch wrote:
jwreschnig wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Guillotine Games set their targets for Zombicide deliberately low knowing they would surpass the amount because the more % over the total you get the more likely you are to appear on the front page.... SDE is easily the best KS I have been involved in.

When the bar is "not borderline fraud," there shouldn't be bragging rights or plaudits for reaching it.


Sodapop has learned the ways of fraudulent 'fake stretch goals' when they did Ninja All Stars and it almost doomed their entire KS because people saw it for what it was. They also had another run-in with fake stretches with Bunnies VS zombies where core components of the game which weree required for gameplay needed to be unlocked.


Speaking of which, whatever happened to Bunnies VS Zombies? Did they just dump it completely?
 
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that Matt
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Magic Pink wrote:
Speaking of which, whatever happened to Bunnies VS Zombies? Did they just dump it completely?

Pretty much.
 
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tumorous wrote:
Magic Pink wrote:
Speaking of which, whatever happened to Bunnies VS Zombies? Did they just dump it completely?

Pretty much.


That's just the Kickstarter cancellation notice and says the exact opposite.
 
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Magic Pink wrote:
tumorous wrote:
Magic Pink wrote:
Speaking of which, whatever happened to Bunnies VS Zombies? Did they just dump it completely?

Pretty much.


That's just the Kickstarter cancellation notice and says the exact opposite.

I guess we read differently "an exciting product that we are looking to build and grow, but the time for that may not be now." They don't want to say "Well that was failing, so fu forget it." They aren't going to slam the door on 453 people who did show interest, but that statement doesn't exactly scream "We're working hard at getting this relaunched."
 
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Mark Steelman
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jwreschnig wrote:
LunarSol wrote:
Honestly, Kickstarter is a pretty good fit for the minis industry in general and I think a lot of people overestimate how big or successful these companies are through Kickstarter. A lot of these games simply have production values that would be far too risky to produce without the assurance Kickstarter provides.

There have been many major and minor additions to SDE without KS (Roxor, Von Drakk, Arena rules, individual miniatures, and now several warbands).

Even an analysis of the products that went through KS shouldn't be about how much profit they made, but about the proportion that went through KS vs retail channels and how many of the KS sales could have gone through retail. Basically, how much of the risk, opportunity cost, and externalities are just semi-secretly being shifted to customers? How much of any given KS is truly covering production requirements vs gamified advertisement spectacle? (A: Too much, and most of most of them.)

But in particular, if SPM were running them better - like, say, had a CSR for the duration of the campaign, had good QA/QC processes, and talked about anything other than delays and future product announcements (sometimes both at once!) - then maybe I wouldn't care. But that's the state we're in.

Sorry, I meant HEY LOOK MICROLABOR DISGUISED AS A PUZZLE VAGUELY HINTING AT NEW WAY TO SPEND MONEY.


They aren't semi-secretly shifting the risk to the customer, it's a simple fact they are shifting at least part of the risk to the customer. Anyone who can't see that is just not paying attention.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a pre-order only model of business. However, each person has the right to make their own decision whether to participate. If the project doesn't say "we are raising money to produce 1,000,000 copies beyond what are pre-sold, then they aren't lying if they just produce the copies that were sold.

Everyone should be aware that in the crowd funding model, you can end up with something you don't like, but if you aren't comfortable with the level of risk, don't back the project. We are talking about a board game here, it's not like you die if you don't buy a game.

One good thing I have seen come out of this trend is a higher level of glamour in the Kickstarter games. Like Cathulu Wars and such where they made giant, awesome minis that are basically Special Edition quality right out of the gate. I would put SDE Forgotten King in this category. It's a glamorous game on the table. There is a reason that this kind of game isn't usually done on speculation. (Speculation meaning... let's spend a bunch of money making a game and then see if anyone likes it).

Of course, we are also seeing rip-offs on Kickstarter, but a rip-off is not when a great game comes out that is expensive or pre-order only. It's when someone raises money to produce a game and then does not deliver the game they advertised.

Finally, you can count on Soda Pop Miniatures to keep making model filled expansions and variations of this game until people stop buying them. I don't think they need to feel ashamed about that.
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