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Subject: Conjuration/Ally Abilities without costs and other questions rss

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Carl Frodge
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Question 1:
Blue Jaguar (Conjuration) has an effect that reads: "Gaze 1: After a unit comes into play on an opponent's battlefield, you may spend 1 [Basic Die Symbol] to place 1 exhaustion token on that unit."

Does this mean I can use this ability any number of times as long as Blue Jaguar isn't exhausted?

Question 2:
Reflections in the Water (Alteration Spell > Unit) has an effect that reads: "As long as this spell is attached to this unit it is considered to have no abilities other than inexhaustable abilities.

I assume the answer is yes, but can I target my opponents units with this card?
 
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Shaun Fuller
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agentkuo wrote:
Question 1:
Blue Jaguar (Conjuration) has an effect that reads: "Gaze 1: After a unit comes into play on an opponent's battlefield, you may spend 1 [Basic Die Symbol] to place 1 exhaustion token on that unit."

Does this mean I can use this ability any number of times as long as Blue Jaguar isn't exhausted?

Question 2:
Reflections in the Water (Alteration Spell > Unit) has an effect that reads: "As long as this spell is attached to this unit it is considered to have no abilities other than inexhaustable abilities.

I assume the answer is yes, but can I target my opponents units with this card?


#1: Yes, as long as you have the die to spend and an enemy unit enters the battlefield you can gaze them while not exhausted. That's why it's good to hold those Jaguars back but get them out early.

#2: Yep. Did it today to the Hammer girl and it took away her extra damage ability. Thematically I think it represents the unit being distracted by other (possibly negative) thoughts and can't focus enough to do their ability.
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Julius Besser
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agentkuo wrote:
Question 1:
Blue Jaguar (Conjuration) has an effect that reads: "Gaze 1: After a unit comes into play on an opponent's battlefield, you may spend 1 [Basic Die Symbol] to place 1 exhaustion token on that unit."

Does this mean I can use this ability any number of times as long as Blue Jaguar isn't exhausted?

You can use this ability each time a unit comes out, as long as your unit isn't exhausted. But you can only use it once each time. So you are not allowed to exhaust two dice to put two exhaust tokens on the other unit.
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Nate F
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Ok, I just finished my first game of Ashes and my brother picked Aradel at random. How is the Blue Jaguar's ability remotely balanced? The vast majority of summoning abilities are main actions, so everything I tried to bring out was immediately exhausted and useless.

Is it just that Saria is a bad match-up?

Slightly frustrated here... heh.
 
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Seth Trammell
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Question on top of this: if you have three jaguars, can you spend a die for each and place 3 exhaustion tokens?
 
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Julius Besser
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Sethy295 wrote:
Question on top of this: if you have three jaguars, can you spend a die for each and place 3 exhaustion tokens?

Yes, each one can trigger independently. But it will cost you almost a third of your dice pool to do that.
 
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Julius Besser
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hyperinactive wrote:
Ok, I just finished my first game of Ashes and my brother picked Aradel at random. How is the Blue Jaguar's ability remotely balanced? The vast majority of summoning abilities are main actions, so everything I tried to bring out was immediately exhausted and useless.

Is it just that Saria is a bad match-up?

Slightly frustrated here... heh.

I believe that the intention is for each of the character's unique cards to be a bit more powerful than other ones, but that will depend on your play style.
A trick to dealing with the blue jaguar is to force your opponent to spend dice so that he cannot take other actions. If you force him to continue to exhaust your weaker units, he won't have dice left to exhaust your stronger units. Also, even though a unit is exhausted, it is only temporarily out of the game. There are some cards that let you move tokens around (like Refresh). And the unit will also come back into the game next round.
There are other ways to deal with the jaguars, too, which depend on your deck and playing style.
 
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Seth Trammell
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Words cannot express what bad news that is. I am not one to cry "broken" when I first start a game; but I am close to rage tearing those cards to shreds after my first game against them. cry cry cry cry cry
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Carl Frodge
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Sounds like "How to deal with Blue Jaguar" will be a popular subject in the strategy forum as the game goes on.
 
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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hyperinactive wrote:
Ok, I just finished my first game of Ashes and my brother picked Aradel at random. How is the Blue Jaguar's ability remotely balanced? The vast majority of summoning abilities are main actions, so everything I tried to bring out was immediately exhausted and useless.

Is it just that Saria is a bad match-up?

Slightly frustrated here... heh.


It is exhausted for one round, hardly useless... They are spending resources to stop you temporarily. Spend yours for permanent gains and play for the long game, which you should win if you can survive the early attacks.

A few details you might have gotten wrong if you find the Jaguar too strong:

It loses Gaze 1 if exhausted, so that means it probably can't attack.
Each Jaguar Gaze 1 can only be used once per unit you bring in
Anything on the board is safe from Gaze 1 once it is there
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Carl Frodge
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XDarkAngelX wrote:
hyperinactive wrote:
Ok, I just finished my first game of Ashes and my brother picked Aradel at random. How is the Blue Jaguar's ability remotely balanced? The vast majority of summoning abilities are main actions, so everything I tried to bring out was immediately exhausted and useless.

Is it just that Saria is a bad match-up?

Slightly frustrated here... heh.


It is exhausted for one round, hardly useless... They are spending resources to stop you temporarily. Spend yours for permanent gains and play for the long game, which you should win if you can survive the early attacks.

A few details you might have gotten wrong if you find the Jaguar too strong:

It loses Gaze 1 if exhausted, so that means it probably can't attack.
Each Jaguar Gaze 1 can only be used once per unit you bring in
Anything on the board is safe from Gaze 1 once it is there

I think the idea with Blue Jaguar is to wait until your opponent passes before it attacks.
Even waiting just a single round before attacking, let alone 2 or 3 (with multiple Blue Jaguars) can really set you back, especially if you have a small Battlefield limit.

I honestly feel like, with just the basic pre-contstructed decks, the best match-up for Aradel is...Aradel. Think about it, her ability counters Blue Jaguar, as does Reflections in the Water. Mist Typhoon deals 1 damage to all opponents units, and Aradel can spam Mist Spirits, which each have 1 Life.
 
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Don
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Well you can target units, so by round 2 you should be able to kill them at your discretion (edit: not with steady gaze). 2 attack 2 life seems a bit strong given their ability, but you can't have it all, as was mentioned it does nothing if they're exhausted. (edit: they will never exhaust them while you have dice left to spend!)
 
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Nate F
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XDarkAngelX wrote:
It is exhausted for one round, hardly useless... They are spending resources to stop you temporarily. Spend yours for permanent gains and play for the long game, which you should win if you can survive the early attacks.

A few details you might have gotten wrong if you find the Jaguar too strong:

It loses Gaze 1 if exhausted, so that means it probably can't attack.
Each Jaguar Gaze 1 can only be used once per unit you bring in
Anything on the board is safe from Gaze 1 once it is there.


I get what you are saying and I agree on paper. However, the situation on the table was this: Saria Guidman has only one ally summon card, so I was pretty much relying on her spellboard summons. One was cheap (one middle charm mana) and the other was expensive (three basic mana). I would main action summon one, Jaguar would exhaust it. Then it would get attacked and killed, or he would use Aradel's ability to deal lethal damage. I could only do so many summon actions. And mine cost more than Blue Jag's response, so I was the one running out of mana.

I am not meaning to whine. I am new to the game and strategies will come. I am settled down enough to feel this was more just a bad matchup and my inexperience. That doesn't take away from Blue Jaguar being an amazing card and a summon to boot.
 
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Carl Frodge
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Actually, just looking through all the cards, I noticed a decent number of cards that could deal with Blue Jaguar in different ways.
 
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Donny Behne
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hyperinactive wrote:
XDarkAngelX wrote:
It is exhausted for one round, hardly useless... They are spending resources to stop you temporarily. Spend yours for permanent gains and play for the long game, which you should win if you can survive the early attacks.

A few details you might have gotten wrong if you find the Jaguar too strong:

It loses Gaze 1 if exhausted, so that means it probably can't attack.
Each Jaguar Gaze 1 can only be used once per unit you bring in
Anything on the board is safe from Gaze 1 once it is there.


I get what you are saying and I agree on paper. However, the situation on the table was this: Saria Guidman has only one ally summon card, so I was pretty much relying on her spellboard summons. One was cheap (one middle charm mana) and the other was expensive (three basic mana). I would main action summon one, Jaguar would exhaust it. Then it would get attacked and killed, or he would use Aradel's ability to deal lethal damage. I could only do so many summon actions. And mine cost more than Blue Jag's response, so I was the one running out of mana.

I am not meaning to whine. I am new to the game and strategies will come. I am settled down enough to feel this was more just a bad matchup and my inexperience. That doesn't take away from Blue Jaguar being an amazing card and a summon to boot.


I take it you haven't seen Jessa Na Ni's signature card, huh? That giant snake is about to have a real bad day...

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Skaak
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hyperinactive wrote:
However, the situation on the table was this: Saria Guidman has only one ally summon card, so I was pretty much relying on her spellboard summons. One was cheap (one middle charm mana) and the other was expensive (three basic mana). I would main action summon one, Jaguar would exhaust it. Then it would get attacked and killed, or he would use Aradel's ability to deal lethal damage. I could only do so many summon actions. And mine cost more than Blue Jag's response, so I was the one running out of mana.


My main suggestion for the next time you have this match-up is to ditch one of the default First Five that has your opponent drawing or discarding in favor of a Seal. "Oh, you played Summon Blue Jaguar? Sorry, not this turn!"

That gives you a full turn to build up your forces, and potentially start the card advantage nastiness going with some Owls (plus Rose Fire Dancer will actually be able to activate prior to dying, since you can play and use her on the same turn as long as they can't Gaze her).

You're still going to have to play very well to win, but if you can turn that first turn advantage into a relative stalemate unit-wise, then you'll probably win in the end just by chewing through their deck and pulling shenanigans with things like Sympathy Pain.
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Joe Clark
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If you are summoning a lot, and he's exhausting everything, he shouldn't be summoning much. Also, try summoning less. Seal is a great counter to the jaguar.
 
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Joseph Arthur Ellis
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Just thinking about Saria's deck:
Sympathy Pain is perfect early-game for killing Jaguars.
Seal is wonderful later as mentioned, since it can seal off multiple copies.
Rose Fire Dancer helps on an ongoing basis.

Of course sometimes they're going to exhaust your units, otherwise they'd be truly weak. Gotta be patient.

Saria is not the best at dealing with Blue Jaguars (I'd give that award to Noah) but even she is not without options. You need to orient your strategy more around the Blue Jaguars any time Aradel is around.

Also, Aradel is the most straightforward Phoenixborn in the game, so don't be surprised that she is the strongest early on, especially against Saria who is perhaps the most complex. It takes time to get good at the game.

PS: Seems like 1 magic is the going rate for an exhaustion token. Noah's ability, Small Sacrfice, and Steady Gaze all cost 1 die per token. Jaguars are better than all these for various reasons of course but it's her signature card.
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Seth Trammell
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Jessa is the phoenixborn who I played as against Aradel. I was infuriated.

Wait a turn? Harder than it sounds. Just talking base deck, I felt like Jessa was horribly outmatched. Jessa's units thrive on their abilities. None of them are inexhaustible. That means that you summon a living doll, and it's exhausted first turn, it's effectively dead already. I'll be waiting to see how this stands the test of time, but I think Jessa is worse off than Noah as described in Joe's post on PHG forums.

There are three things to look at that are Jessa's worst nightmare:

Blue Jaguars: they're really bad. They can pump out faster than you can deal with them and for cheaper.

Steady Gaze: Just as bad, effectively guarantees your unit will be killed before it sees any use.

Reflections in the water: Can't exhaust a unit? No worries, put this attachment on living puppet to make it do nothing.

This deck specializes at taking everything Jessa loves. Like her units' functionality.
 
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Carl Frodge
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Sethy295 wrote:
Jessa is the phoenixborn who I played as against Aradel. I was infuriated.

Wait a turn? Harder than it sounds. Just talking base deck, I felt like Jessa was horribly outmatched. Jessa's units thrive on their abilities. None of them are inexhaustible. That means that you summon a living doll, and it's exhausted first turn, it's effectively dead already. I'll be waiting to see how this stands the test of time, but I think Jessa is worse off than Noah as described in Joe's post on PHG forums.

There are three things to look at that are Jessa's worst nightmare:

Blue Jaguars: they're really bad. They can pump out faster than you can deal with them and for cheaper.

Steady Gaze: Just as bad, effectively guarantees your unit will be killed before it sees any use.

Reflections in the water: Can't exhaust a unit? No worries, put this attachment on living puppet to make it do nothing.

This deck specializes at taking everything Jessa loves. Like her units' functionality.

Jessa has Fear which takes care of Blue Jaguar.
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Seth Trammell
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True, I had forgotten about dealing with the first jaguar via fear.
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
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Sethy295 wrote:
That means that you summon a living doll, and it's exhausted first turn, it's effectively dead already.


You are aware that you can block attacks on your exhausted Living Doll by taking the damage on Jessa, right? I can't see why you'd let it die when you've spent 3 dice on it.

It's only gone for a round. And they can only attack once a round per unit. Use your Phoenixborn's Health, don't just let key units die.
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Don
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I just played coal vs blue jaguar and I really have no idea what to do or how I should have dealt with it.

He got to go first so the blue jaguar spellbook was the first card down. I guess I should have gone ironworker, then used slash 2x to kill the first jaguar, but then I'd have no cards and he just nuked my ironworker with aradel so it's like 4 mana and 2 cards negated by 3 mana exchange.

We laughed the game off, I think it went 5-6 rounds but was nothing but steady gaze on stuff that was already on the board and blue jaguar on stuff that I was trying to get out on the board.

Coal didn't seem to have an answer for it at all, my opponent was a little put off by the game due to how unfair the match seemed, and he was winning!

EDIT: I think the biggest problem is how cheap gaze is, if it was a leaf or something you could measure it out a bit, but 1 of anything is just borderline crazy. I'd be interested to know how this was handled in the tournament at Gencon, I heard Maeni won.
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Carl Frodge
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vdaoine wrote:
I just played coal vs blue jaguar and I really have no idea what to do or how I should have dealt with it.

He got to go first so the blue jaguar spellbook was the first card down. I guess I should have gone ironworker, then used slash 2x to kill the first jaguar, but then I'd have no cards and he just nuked my ironworker with aradel so it's like 4 mana and 2 cards negated by 3 mana exchange.

We laughed the game off, I think it went 5-6 rounds but was nothing but steady gaze on stuff that was already on the board and blue jaguar on stuff that I was trying to get out on the board.

Coal didn't seem to have an answer for it at all, my opponent was a little put off by the game due to how unfair the match seemed, and he was winning!

EDIT: I think the biggest problem is how cheap gaze is, if it was a leaf or something you could measure it out a bit, but 1 of anything is just borderline crazy. I'd be interested to know how this was handled in the tournament at Gencon, I heard Maeni won.

I think one of two things might happen:

Either 1: Isaac and the Ashes team will realize that Gaze is overpowered/broken and release errata for it, making it less broken.

or 2: Once everyone gets a feel for the game and the different decks (especially after deckbuilding), we'll realize that Gaze isn't that overpowered afterall, it just seemed that way in the beginning.

 
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Don
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agentkuo wrote:

or 2: Once everyone gets a feel for the game and the different decks (especially after deckbuilding), we'll realize that Gaze isn't that overpowered afterall, it just seemed that way in the beginning.



This will probably happen, but it kinda feels like you have to include a counter in your first 5 no matter what...I think this will negatively affect deckbuilding in part due to the small size of the current card pool.

It also makes a bad first impression. I was using Aradel to teach new players, I'm not sure I'll do that any more.
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