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Subject: Interesting legal case here rss

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Jon Badolato
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Suit Threatened Over Kentucky Juvenile Prison Rule Limiting Counselors' Statements About Homosexuality

Liberty Counsel is threatening a lawsuit against the Kentucky Department of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) over its policy that provides:
DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors, in the course of their work, shall not refer to juveniles by using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred of the LGBTQI community. DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors shall not imply or tell LGBTQI juveniles that they are abnormal, deviant, sinful, or that they can or should change their sexual orientation or gender identity.
In its press release last Friday, Liberty Counsel indicated that it has sent a demand letter (full text) to DJJ insisting on the reinstatement of a counselor and mentor, Christian pastor David Wells, who apparently had his volunteer prison minister status revoked when he refused to sign a form promising to refrain from telling any juvenile inmates that homosexuality was sinful. The demand letter argues in part:

DJJ 912 violates the First Amendment by prescribing an official state religious “orthodoxy:” now, only a religious belief that homosexuality is not “sinful” may be expressed in DJJ facilities,

I think it would fail due to the fact that NOT telling someone they are sinful or deviant ( as the prison system requests ) is not a religious POV in and of itself as the Liberty Counsel seems to be implying from the above information.
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Josh
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jonb wrote:
Suit Threatened Over Kentucky Juvenile Prison Rule Limiting Counselors' Statements About Homosexuality

Liberty Counsel is threatening a lawsuit against the Kentucky Department of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) over its policy that provides:
DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors, in the course of their work, shall not refer to juveniles by using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred of the LGBTQI community. DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors shall not imply or tell LGBTQI juveniles that they are abnormal, deviant, sinful, or that they can or should change their sexual orientation or gender identity.
In its press release last Friday, Liberty Counsel indicated that it has sent a demand letter (full text) to DJJ insisting on the reinstatement of a counselor and mentor, Christian pastor David Wells, who apparently had his volunteer prison minister status revoked when he refused to sign a form promising to refrain from telling any juvenile inmates that homosexuality was sinful. The demand letter argues in part:

DJJ 912 violates the First Amendment by prescribing an official state religious “orthodoxy:” now, only a religious belief that homosexuality is not “sinful” may be expressed in DJJ facilities,

I think it would fail due to the fact that NOT telling someone they are sinful or deviant ( as the prison system requests ) is not a religious POV in and of itself as the Liberty Counsel seems to be implying from the above information.


I think you are correct. The proper response in this case would not be 'It is not sinful'(if you believe it is) but rather 'I am not allowed by contract to express my opinions on the sinfulness of sexuality.'

 
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Guido Van Horn
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Shadrach wrote:
jonb wrote:
Suit Threatened Over Kentucky Juvenile Prison Rule Limiting Counselors' Statements About Homosexuality

Liberty Counsel is threatening a lawsuit against the Kentucky Department of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) over its policy that provides:
DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors, in the course of their work, shall not refer to juveniles by using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred of the LGBTQI community. DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors shall not imply or tell LGBTQI juveniles that they are abnormal, deviant, sinful, or that they can or should change their sexual orientation or gender identity.
In its press release last Friday, Liberty Counsel indicated that it has sent a demand letter (full text) to DJJ insisting on the reinstatement of a counselor and mentor, Christian pastor David Wells, who apparently had his volunteer prison minister status revoked when he refused to sign a form promising to refrain from telling any juvenile inmates that homosexuality was sinful. The demand letter argues in part:

DJJ 912 violates the First Amendment by prescribing an official state religious “orthodoxy:” now, only a religious belief that homosexuality is not “sinful” may be expressed in DJJ facilities,

I think it would fail due to the fact that NOT telling someone they are sinful or deviant ( as the prison system requests ) is not a religious POV in and of itself as the Liberty Counsel seems to be implying from the above information.


I think you are correct. The proper response in this case would not be 'It is not sinful'(if you believe it is) but rather 'I am not allowed by contract to express my opinions on the sinfulness of sexuality.'



Straining at a legal gnat and not seeing the bigger picture. This is a direct attempt to control the religious message on state property. The minister is volunteering on some sort of official religious capacity to counsel with inmates, controlling or modifying that religious message is a huge overstep.
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James Myers
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While it's nice that juvenile prisoners aren't being taught to hate themselves... I don't think this is the right way to go about it?

I mean, the guy has a right to be a bigot and preach it... eh, then again, all they did was fire him. If you're there as a volunteer counselor, you're not necessarily there in a volunteer ministerial position... hrm.

Free market at work, carry on! I dunno how to feel about this one at first glance. Seems largely ok, depends on some more unstated specifics.
 
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GuidoVanHorn wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
jonb wrote:
Suit Threatened Over Kentucky Juvenile Prison Rule Limiting Counselors' Statements About Homosexuality

Liberty Counsel is threatening a lawsuit against the Kentucky Department of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) over its policy that provides:
DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors, in the course of their work, shall not refer to juveniles by using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred of the LGBTQI community. DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors shall not imply or tell LGBTQI juveniles that they are abnormal, deviant, sinful, or that they can or should change their sexual orientation or gender identity.
In its press release last Friday, Liberty Counsel indicated that it has sent a demand letter (full text) to DJJ insisting on the reinstatement of a counselor and mentor, Christian pastor David Wells, who apparently had his volunteer prison minister status revoked when he refused to sign a form promising to refrain from telling any juvenile inmates that homosexuality was sinful. The demand letter argues in part:

DJJ 912 violates the First Amendment by prescribing an official state religious “orthodoxy:” now, only a religious belief that homosexuality is not “sinful” may be expressed in DJJ facilities,

I think it would fail due to the fact that NOT telling someone they are sinful or deviant ( as the prison system requests ) is not a religious POV in and of itself as the Liberty Counsel seems to be implying from the above information.


I think you are correct. The proper response in this case would not be 'It is not sinful'(if you believe it is) but rather 'I am not allowed by contract to express my opinions on the sinfulness of sexuality.'



Straining at a legal gnat and not seeing the bigger picture. This is a direct attempt to control the religious message on state property. The minister is volunteering on some sort of official religious capacity to counsel with inmates, controlling or modifying that religious message is a huge overstep.


While I get the problems with this, maybe we can have some middle ground with juveniles in a vulnerable setting? Something between counseling honestly and beating down vulnerable kids? I.e., honest religious counseling versus "using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred." Or calling them "abnormal" or "deviants"?

Personally, I think they should just revise the guidelines as they apply to volunteers specifically and then make them very clear that the volunteers can counsel as long as they have pretty clear consent from the juvenile in detention to be counseled by a religious volunteer and as long as they aren't abusing their position to harm by resorting to the aforementioned derogatory language, etc.

The rest of the employees can just calm down and deal with this like adults.
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Marcel
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GuidoVanHorn wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
jonb wrote:
Suit Threatened Over Kentucky Juvenile Prison Rule Limiting Counselors' Statements About Homosexuality

Liberty Counsel is threatening a lawsuit against the Kentucky Department of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) over its policy that provides:
DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors, in the course of their work, shall not refer to juveniles by using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred of the LGBTQI community. DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors shall not imply or tell LGBTQI juveniles that they are abnormal, deviant, sinful, or that they can or should change their sexual orientation or gender identity.
In its press release last Friday, Liberty Counsel indicated that it has sent a demand letter (full text) to DJJ insisting on the reinstatement of a counselor and mentor, Christian pastor David Wells, who apparently had his volunteer prison minister status revoked when he refused to sign a form promising to refrain from telling any juvenile inmates that homosexuality was sinful. The demand letter argues in part:

DJJ 912 violates the First Amendment by prescribing an official state religious “orthodoxy:” now, only a religious belief that homosexuality is not “sinful” may be expressed in DJJ facilities,

I think it would fail due to the fact that NOT telling someone they are sinful or deviant ( as the prison system requests ) is not a religious POV in and of itself as the Liberty Counsel seems to be implying from the above information.


I think you are correct. The proper response in this case would not be 'It is not sinful'(if you believe it is) but rather 'I am not allowed by contract to express my opinions on the sinfulness of sexuality.'



Straining at a legal gnat and not seeing the bigger picture. This is a direct attempt to control the religious message on state property. The minister is volunteering on some sort of official religious capacity to counsel with inmates, controlling or modifying that religious message is a huge overstep.

yes, let's have people volunteering in prisons spread more hate among the prison population, that will be great for the overall conditions in prisons. i do not know why this man feels like he needs to spread the message of hate among the prison population, but I am glad that there are people who realise that most prisons have enough hate going around as it is, and they do not need any more.

Homosexuality is a very minor issue in the bible, it is one of many sins that are being mentioned. I think that when dealing with a prison population a minister has many more relevant and serious sins to be talking about.

 
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Guido Van Horn
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she2 wrote:
GuidoVanHorn wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
jonb wrote:
Suit Threatened Over Kentucky Juvenile Prison Rule Limiting Counselors' Statements About Homosexuality

Liberty Counsel is threatening a lawsuit against the Kentucky Department of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) over its policy that provides:
DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors, in the course of their work, shall not refer to juveniles by using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred of the LGBTQI community. DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors shall not imply or tell LGBTQI juveniles that they are abnormal, deviant, sinful, or that they can or should change their sexual orientation or gender identity.
In its press release last Friday, Liberty Counsel indicated that it has sent a demand letter (full text) to DJJ insisting on the reinstatement of a counselor and mentor, Christian pastor David Wells, who apparently had his volunteer prison minister status revoked when he refused to sign a form promising to refrain from telling any juvenile inmates that homosexuality was sinful. The demand letter argues in part:

DJJ 912 violates the First Amendment by prescribing an official state religious “orthodoxy:” now, only a religious belief that homosexuality is not “sinful” may be expressed in DJJ facilities,

I think it would fail due to the fact that NOT telling someone they are sinful or deviant ( as the prison system requests ) is not a religious POV in and of itself as the Liberty Counsel seems to be implying from the above information.


I think you are correct. The proper response in this case would not be 'It is not sinful'(if you believe it is) but rather 'I am not allowed by contract to express my opinions on the sinfulness of sexuality.'



Straining at a legal gnat and not seeing the bigger picture. This is a direct attempt to control the religious message on state property. The minister is volunteering on some sort of official religious capacity to counsel with inmates, controlling or modifying that religious message is a huge overstep.


While I get the problems with this, maybe we can have some middle ground with juveniles in a vulnerable setting? Something between counseling honestly and beating down vulnerable kids? I.e., honest religious counseling versus "using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred." Or calling them "abnormal" or "deviants"?

Personally, I think they should just revise the guidelines as they apply to volunteers specifically and then make them very clear that the volunteers can counsel as long as they have pretty clear consent from the juvenile in detention to be counseled by a religious volunteer and as long as they aren't abusing their position to harm by resorting to the aforementioned derogatory language, etc.

The rest of the employees can just calm down and deal with this like adults.



All aboard that we should be treating inmates with decency...they are still human. However..."shall not imply or tell LGBTQI juveniles that they are abnormal, deviant, sinful,..."

This policy would preclude religious counseling to broach the subject of repentance for sinful behavior (if that is within their religious framework). Not really something the state should be interfering with.
 
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Guido Van Horn
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mag74b wrote:
GuidoVanHorn wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
jonb wrote:
Suit Threatened Over Kentucky Juvenile Prison Rule Limiting Counselors' Statements About Homosexuality

Liberty Counsel is threatening a lawsuit against the Kentucky Department of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) over its policy that provides:
DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors, in the course of their work, shall not refer to juveniles by using derogatory language in a manner that conveys bias towards or hatred of the LGBTQI community. DJJ staff, volunteers, interns, and contractors shall not imply or tell LGBTQI juveniles that they are abnormal, deviant, sinful, or that they can or should change their sexual orientation or gender identity.
In its press release last Friday, Liberty Counsel indicated that it has sent a demand letter (full text) to DJJ insisting on the reinstatement of a counselor and mentor, Christian pastor David Wells, who apparently had his volunteer prison minister status revoked when he refused to sign a form promising to refrain from telling any juvenile inmates that homosexuality was sinful. The demand letter argues in part:

DJJ 912 violates the First Amendment by prescribing an official state religious “orthodoxy:” now, only a religious belief that homosexuality is not “sinful” may be expressed in DJJ facilities,

I think it would fail due to the fact that NOT telling someone they are sinful or deviant ( as the prison system requests ) is not a religious POV in and of itself as the Liberty Counsel seems to be implying from the above information.


I think you are correct. The proper response in this case would not be 'It is not sinful'(if you believe it is) but rather 'I am not allowed by contract to express my opinions on the sinfulness of sexuality.'



Straining at a legal gnat and not seeing the bigger picture. This is a direct attempt to control the religious message on state property. The minister is volunteering on some sort of official religious capacity to counsel with inmates, controlling or modifying that religious message is a huge overstep.

yes, let's have people volunteering in prisons spread more hate among the prison population, that will be great for the overall conditions in prisons. i do not know why this man feels like he needs to spread the message of hate among the prison population, but I am glad that there are people who realise that most prisons have enough hate going around as it is, and they do not need any more.

Homosexuality is a very minor issue in the bible, it is one of many sins that are being mentioned. I think that when dealing with a prison population a minister has many more relevant and serious sins to be talking about.



As long as you get to decide what is a minor or major issue for all religions we should be a-ok.
 
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