Ien C.
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Let's say you have no meeples left. You place a tile and complete a forest with gold nuggets with one of your meeples in it. Are you able to use this returned meeple on the subsequent bonus tile?
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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And when, exactly, are we playing Churchill again?
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Yes.
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Damian White
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You can.

On Page 8 of the rules, with respect to deploying a tribe member, scoring it immediately, and having it returned, all in the same turn:

"The RGG edition adds the following sentence here: “It is even possible in the right circumstance for a player to do this with his placement of a land tile and again with the placement of a bonus card.”

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Ien C.
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DNAmers wrote:
You can.

On Page 8 of the rules, with respect to deploying a tribe member, scoring it immediately, and having it returned, all in the same turn:

"The RGG edition adds the following sentence here: “It is even possible in the right circumstance for a player to do this with his placement of a land tile and again with the placement of a bonus card.”



Thanks, but this could be mean that you can place and get back one meeple for the normal tile, and place and get back another meeple that you also had in supply for the bonus tile, not necessarily that you are using a single meeple for both.

After all, the rules also say: "The players may place the returned tribe members and use them in any role they choose on their next turn" with NEXT TURN emphasized.

It's this next turn emphasis that is a problem. Is the bonus turn a next turn or the same turn, or is that part about next turn just badly written? I suspect it's just badly written.
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Jared
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ghopper21 wrote:
DNAmers wrote:
You can.

On Page 8 of the rules, with respect to deploying a tribe member, scoring it immediately, and having it returned, all in the same turn:

"The RGG edition adds the following sentence here: “It is even possible in the right circumstance for a player to do this with his placement of a land tile and again with the placement of a bonus card.”



Thanks, but this could be mean that you can place and get back one meeple for the normal tile, and place and get back another meeple that you also had in supply for the bonus tile, not necessarily that you are using a single meeple for both.

After all, the rules also say: "The players may place the returned tribe members and use them in any role they choose on their next turn" with NEXT TURN emphasized.

It's this next turn emphasis that is a problem. Is the bonus turn a next turn or the same turn, or is that part about next turn just badly written? I suspect it's just badly written.

Isn't placing the bonus tile your "NEXT TURN"?
 
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Ien C.
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stlm wrote:
ghopper21 wrote:
Is the bonus turn a next turn or the same turn, or is that part about next turn just badly written? I suspect it's just badly written.

Isn't placing the bonus tile your "NEXT TURN"?

Indeed, that is the question that is begged by these rules. Normally there's no reason to refer to the bonus tile as a next turn, but the rules sort of force you to think of it that way, if we assume you can place a returned meeple on the bonus tile. Anyhow, this is the point -- not clear, at least not to me.
 
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Jared
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ghopper21 wrote:
stlm wrote:
ghopper21 wrote:
Is the bonus turn a next turn or the same turn, or is that part about next turn just badly written? I suspect it's just badly written.

Isn't placing the bonus tile your "NEXT TURN"?

Indeed, that is the question that is begged by these rules. Normally there's no reason to refer to the bonus tile as a next turn, but the rules sort of force you to think of it that way, if we assume you can place a returned meeple on the bonus tile. Anyhow, this is the point -- not clear, at least not to me.


Z-Man rules explicitly allow this:

Quote:

Due to the sequence of a game turn, it is possible to place a tribe member and have it returned to you in the same
turn. One must…
1. Place a new tile so that it completes an unoccupied forest or river.
2. Place a tribe member from their supply on to the newly completed feature.
3. Score the newly completed feature.
4. The tribe member is then immediately returned to the player.
If this should result in the completion of a forest containing gold nuggets, that same tribe member can even be
placed on the Bonus tile.


http://zmangames.com/rulebooks/Carcassonne_Hunters&Gatherers...
page 5


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Ien C.
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Now THAT is clearer, thanks Jared! Good thing Z-man rewrote that sentence from the Rio Grande rules, which I have. (Although it's tempting to quibble that the rule here strictly speaking only applies to the specific case of placing and returning a meeple on the same turn, as opposed to any turn where you return a meeple, I think it's fair to say the intent for this to be a general rule is clear enough.)

Incidentally, they also rewrote the "next turn" language, changing it to "future turns," presumably to clarify that the returned meeple can be used on any subsequent turn, not just the immediately following one. One it's own, this revised language would still be unclear in terms of whether a bonus tile counts as a "future turn" or not; but it's a moot point given they put that explicit point in the sentence your quoted. (*Mostly* moot given my parenthetical point above... )
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Ien C.
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Incidentally, while in rules lawyering mode, I've noticed an odd change in the Z-Man rules. It has changed 2 points per "forest segment" (Rio Grande's language) to 2 points per "forest tile" -- even though it retains the example that shows 10 points for a 5-segment, 4-tile forest. That definitely makes the changed rule flat-out incorrect.

To its credit, it does fix a different mistake in the Rio Grande rules: the one that says only 2-segment forests do not have gold; that is incorrect -- as the mushroom forest bonus tile can be used to create a 3-segment forest with no gold. Score one for Z-Man over Rio Grande on this one.

Both sets of rules have clear mistakes, quite separate from the ambiguity about "next turn"/"future turns."

Sheesh...

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Jared
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ghopper21 wrote:
Incidentally, while in rules lawyering mode, I've noticed an odd change in the Z-Man rules. It has changed 2 points per "forest segment" (Rio Grande's language) to 2 points per "forest tile" -- even though it retains the example that shows 10 points for a 5-segment, 4-tile forest. That definitely makes the changed rule flat-out incorrect.

To its credit, it does fix a different mistake in the Rio Grande rules: the one that says only 2-segment forests do not have gold; that is incorrect -- as the mushroom forest bonus tile can be used to create a 3-segment forest with no gold. Score one for Z-Man over Rio Grande on this one.

Both sets of rules have clear mistakes, quite separate from the ambiguity about "next turn"/"future turns."

Sheesh...



When writing up rules it must be a fine line to walk between keeping them as concise as possible and trying to avoid ambiguities. Seems like there are often things that need cleared up, and it doesn't help when there are blatantly obvious errors!
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Liallan G
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It would be better if they used the term "next move," since another move can be done in the same turn. Or even "next tile placement." Of course, another way to think of it is that a bonus tile is a bonus turn.

Of course, I'm nobody and they probably won't listen to me.
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Tomello Visello
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ghopper21 wrote:
Incidentally, while in rules lawyering mode, I've noticed an odd change in the Z-Man rules. It has changed 2 points per "forest segment" (Rio Grande's language) to 2 points per "forest tile" -- even though it retains the example that shows 10 points for a 5-segment, 4-tile forest. That definitely makes the changed rule flat-out incorrect.

cross reference

Re: Scoring Forests

 
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Ien C.
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Liallan wrote:
It would be better if they used the term "next move," since another move can be done in the same turn. Or even "next tile placement." Of course, another way to think of it is that a bonus tile is a bonus turn.

Of course, I'm nobody and they probably won't listen to me.

Yep, not so hard to get this right! :-) They could even just say the returned meeple can be used on "any future tile, including on a forest bonus tile on the same turn" -- but that would be too clear :-)
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