Ien C.
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I love this game. Even got a group of players who try to get together to play specifically this now and then. But I noticed I have one hesitancy about seeking out a game theses days, when I (and all of us) have less time to play. Even a 2-hour game can feel long on a weeknight evening with folks having to get home, deal with spouses/kids/whatever.

The issue is often the end-game, when it's more possible to calculate exactly the right move. There's no hidden information, no randomness, so there is pretty much a right play to eek out the last $.

Sometimes I muse on how nice it would be if there was just a bit of randomness or hidden information to avoid this end-game bogdown. Now, that feels like blasphemy, I now, since that would risk destroying the game overall, which would be sacrilege.

Anyhow, just wondering if anyone else has a similar endgame bogdown?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gillum the Stoor
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Our games have been much longer, but they were slow all the way through. The first was a learning game for most players, and the second was faster - but still around 3 hours. They were on Saturday afternoons with lots of talking, breaks for chai, etc.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
UA Darth
United States
Boca Raton
FL
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It always comes down to the players. Talk to the players about playing more considerately. Take a reasonable amount of time and then just make a move. Add a timer if people can't play considerately on their own.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ien C.
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shadow9d9 wrote:
It always comes down to the players. Talk to the players about playing more considerately. Take a reasonable amount of time and then just make a move. Add a timer if people can't play considerately on their own.

Sure, I take that as a given, it's more just in the nature of game to bog down at the end relative to how fast it plays earlier in the game, given you can start calculating optimal moves down to the $1...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Harrison
United States
Cleveland
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
www.gamesonthebrain.com
badge
www.gamesonthebrain.com
Avatar
Play with hidden money. And dice.

Add 2d6 to the each company's income after the end of each round.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
Play with hidden money. And dice.

Add 2d6 to the each company's income after the end of each round.




 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
ghopper21 wrote:
I love this game...
Anyhow, just wondering if anyone else has a similar endgame bogdown?

We find that because the initial stock you buy, usually turns out much more lucrative than expected, the difficulty of estimating the true value of stock is harder in the beginning. When we get to the end of the game, once you've calculated the return on investment the auction is usually finished quite quickly.

Thus, in the beginning the auction rounds end somewhat fast because no one can really-really estimate the value so it's mostly gut feeling. In the end it's much easier to calculate and so there is less deliberating when the bidding order makes a complete revolution and comes back to the bidding player.

We use 2 hours for 4 players if I have to explain the rules before the game starts. We've played about 10-12 times now and that estimate is quite accurate, even if we are somewhat slow (and definitely colluding and negotiating openly).

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
DK Kemler
United States
Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why aren't players looking for optimal moves during the befogging and middle of the game?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
UA Darth
United States
Boca Raton
FL
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The funny thing is that there should be less options and have results be more obvious at the end.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gillum the Stoor
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shadow9d9 wrote:
The funny thing is that there should be less options and have results be more obvious at the end.

That is the issue.

The number of options is sufficiently low, and the results of each sufficiently easy to determine, that players feel that the can reasonably evaluate each thoroughly before making a move.

Earlier in the game, there are so many options with results that are hard (for inexperienced player) to foresee, that many players are willing to take turns quickly and keep their fingers crossed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
UA Darth
United States
Boca Raton
FL
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gillum wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
The funny thing is that there should be less options and have results be more obvious at the end.

That is the issue.

The number of options is sufficiently low, and the results of each sufficiently easy to determine, that players feel that the can reasonably evaluate each thoroughly before making a move.

Earlier in the game, there are so many options with results that are hard (for inexperienced player) to foresee, that many players are willing to take turns quickly and keep their fingers crossed.


That sounds contradictory. If the number is low, then it'd be easy to calculate. So, even "thoroughly" would be fast.

In the end, like all AP, it is about player choice. Do they choose to bog down the game for a 1-2 point possibility for themselves or do they accept that they've come to the best decision in a reasonable amount of time and move on. I only play with players of this mentality. We all get bogged from time to time, and we simply remind each other if another ever gets there, and we accept it and make our move.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whether it actually "slows" the game down or not, the last round just feels slower, because there are no more interesting decisions. It just gets really flat. It's my only criticism of the game. I like games where the last round is the most tense of them all. But in AR, the last round is by far the least tense.

Don't get me wrong; I still like the game a lot. But if something could be done to make the end-game a bit more exciting, it might be one of my favorite games.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
UA Darth
United States
Boca Raton
FL
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
Whether it actually "slows" the game down or not, the last round just feels slower, because there are no more interesting decisions. It just gets really flat. It's my only criticism of the game. I like games where the last round is the most tense of them all. But in AR, the last round is by far the least tense.

Don't get me wrong; I still like the game a lot. But if something could be done to make the end-game a bit more exciting, it might be one of my favorite games.


It is also the case with Chicago Express and all of the others(Pampas, etc). The game is front loaded. The end rounds shouldn't be long because the players should be playing them super quick because it doesn't matter much at that point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shadow9d9 wrote:
The end rounds shouldn't be long because the players should be playing them super quick because it doesn't matter much at that point.

I agree they shouldn't be long. We also agree why: because turns don't matter at the end.

And that's my gripe. If turns don't matter, I wish I wasn't playing them. If they could come up with a way to either end the game sooner--before turns become pointless--or make the end-of-game turns matter, it would go from good to amazing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
UA Darth
United States
Boca Raton
FL
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
The end rounds shouldn't be long because the players should be playing them super quick because it doesn't matter much at that point.

I agree they shouldn't be long. We also agree why: because turns don't matter at the end.

And that's my gripe. If turns don't matter, I wish I wasn't playing them. If they could come up with a way to either end the game sooner--before turns become pointless--or make the end-of-game turns matter, it would go from good to amazing.


To end the game sooner, push to end it yourself with one of the end game conditions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
shadow9d9 wrote:
thedacker wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
The end rounds shouldn't be long because the players should be playing them super quick because it doesn't matter much at that point.

I agree they shouldn't be long. We also agree why: because turns don't matter at the end.

And that's my gripe. If turns don't matter, I wish I wasn't playing them. If they could come up with a way to either end the game sooner--before turns become pointless--or make the end-of-game turns matter, it would go from good to amazing.


To end the game sooner, push to end it yourself with one of the end game conditions.

That doesn't fix the problem. All players' last several turns are next to meaningless no matter when the end-game is triggered.

I'm sorry to tell you that no matter what you say I'm still going to feel the same way about the end-game being flat. It seems you even agree with me, you said the game is "front loaded". Which is another way of saying decisions mean less the closer you get to the end of the game. That doesn't seem to be an issue for you. But it is to me. And that's okay, my friend.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
UA Darth
United States
Boca Raton
FL
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
thedacker wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
The end rounds shouldn't be long because the players should be playing them super quick because it doesn't matter much at that point.

I agree they shouldn't be long. We also agree why: because turns don't matter at the end.

And that's my gripe. If turns don't matter, I wish I wasn't playing them. If they could come up with a way to either end the game sooner--before turns become pointless--or make the end-of-game turns matter, it would go from good to amazing.


To end the game sooner, push to end it yourself with one of the end game conditions.

That doesn't fix the problem. All players' last several turns are next to meaningless no matter when the end-game is triggered.

I'm sorry to tell you that no matter what you say I'm still going to feel the same way about the end-game being flat. It seems you even agree with me, you said the game is "front loaded". Which is another way of saying decisions mean less the closer you get to the end of the game. That doesn't seem to be an issue for you. But it is to me. And that's okay, my friend. :)


I definitely agree. The intensity is all in the front. Hell, the first auction could determine the whole game. While the end is a bit of a drag, there is still sooome excitement and it revolves around triggering the end at the right moment. I guess I just accepted that that is the way these games end. I'd rather a little too long than cut short either through luck/randomness or because the game is too short/out of one's control.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that it is perfect!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Harrison
United States
Cleveland
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
www.gamesonthebrain.com
badge
www.gamesonthebrain.com
Avatar
thedacker wrote:
All players' last several turns are next to meaningless no matter when the end-game is triggered.


I agree that the game is front-loaded. However, if you are playing well, games should regularly be decided by $1 or $2. All players can and should be within $10. You won't get several meaningless turns if this is the case.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.