Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Board Game Design » Board Game Design

Subject: I thought this was going to be easy! rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
nat tact
United States
Indianapolis
IN
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've been thinking about introducing a useless component to my game because in play testing people just aren't following the rules.

It's not a big deal but people just don't follow the point counting rules which is supposed to be easy. You get 10 victory points worth of cards and then you make a stack of 10 so everyone can see where you are and who is currently wining. But people are just skipping over that rule so when someone asks how many points that everyone has it takes 3-4 minutes for people to count. Now were not counting high just to 36 or 31 or 26 depending on the amount of players.

To solve this I am thinking about introducing a counter board much like a lot of games have but that will increase the game cost. So I dont know. I kind of like the idea of individual counters but that will be more expensive.

IDK help me with my stress!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Newman
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If people aren't following a rule consistently, then it may not be a good rule, or just not intuitive. Is it really that big a deal to pause and count score? Do other people complain about it or does it just irk you because it's not the way you want it to go?

Basically, is this a problem with the game or just a control issue you're having?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel B-G
United Kingdom
Leeds
W Yorks
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You could opt to go for the Rise of Augustus route and add a finite number of cards to the game that each have a point value printed on them. Whenever someone wins a trick/scores some points/<insert applicable scoring method here>, they have the option to cash in for one of the cards. Put in some risk and reward for paying out early or late. That way it becomes a feature and you'll only be adding a handful of cards and therefore not increasing the price too much.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
maf man
United States
Waunakee (madison area)
WI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
well can you tell what exactly the problem is?
Is it a hassle to make that stack? does it seem pointless to them at first? does it take up too much room or time? do they not understand the benefit?
There could be a better way but you've got to be sure you know the actual source. It could just be they have to have a handle on the game first, I remember my family had a few players of catan that didn't "get" that they should probably hide their hand even after a full game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Jome
United States
Franklin
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mb
Score tracks are a highly successful, proven, useful tool.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John duBois
United States
Troy
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
First off, a component that reduces down time/counting time and increases ease of play is NOT a useless component. You are doing your game a disservice by thinking of it as such. Any component that makes the game easier and faster to play without changing the strategy or mechanics of the game is a *very useful* component (and a component can be both very useful and cost-prohibitive).

Score tracks are not expensive if done correctly. Check out Great Heartland Hauling Company or Brew Crafters: The Travel Card Game. Both use 1-2 cards per player and one token per player. Cheap (probably cheaper than whatever you're having them stack unless there's another game use for the stacked items).
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nat Levan
United States
Glenside
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Hast ye seen the White Whale?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you already have 10 cards per player, just print 1-10 on the cards and put them face up in the stack. The top card is the score. No counting needed.
Those extra cards might actually be more expensive than a single cardboard sheet with a track and a few tokens on it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
nat tact
United States
Indianapolis
IN
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
petrix wrote:
If people aren't following a rule consistently, then it may not be a good rule, or just not intuitive. Is it really that big a deal to pause and count score? Do other people complain about it or does it just irk you because it's not the way you want it to go?

Basically, is this a problem with the game or just a control issue you're having?


Thanks all. We'll it's not a problem with the game the game runs smoothly.
Basically VP are awarded to completing certain cards. In the end of the game there are bonus points given out that change every game to help with the replay value.

The points scored are in the bottom of the card so in the rules it says lay out your vp cards in a line showing the points so that everyone knows how many points everyone has. When you get ten pull them into a stack.

Our cards do have point values from 0-5 so you can have 13 points without being able to pull them into a stack... But... There are cards that can indirectly hinder someones process to win.

The problem is that when people don't put their cards into stacks of ten - and in a four player game it takes 21 points to win, towards the end of the game there is a lot of "how many points does everyone have."

And that eats up a lot of game time. I guess we could add a counter easily and can put it on our place mat, but that was something that would drive up the price of the game which is what I didn't want to happen. Oh Well!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
maf man
United States
Waunakee (madison area)
WI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
perhaps you could do something like scoring in euchre?
That does depend on your cards, of which I know nothing about, but you mentioned they had values on them. My guess is that its the stack of ten thats messing it up. Perhaps you don't need actual scores? Would ranking be enough? Have only one card from each person out and you have them layered out in a way so whoever is on top is current leader?

edit: ok so I just googled scoring in euchre...WHO THE HELL USES A 2 AND 3?! I'm a 4 and 6 kinda guy, same logic is used with 5s, its a simple pip reveal and thats what I mean to suggest. Just in case you don't know euchre, I thought I better say something, its simple and everyone gets it. except apparently the 2&3 guys
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John duBois
United States
Troy
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mafman6 wrote:
perhaps you could do something like scoring in euchre?
That does depend on your cards, of which I know nothing about, but you mentioned they had values on them. My guess is that its the stack of ten thats messing it up. Perhaps you don't need actual scores? Would ranking be enough? Have only one card from each person out and you have them layered out in a way so whoever is on top is current leader?

edit: ok so I just googled scoring in euchre...WHO THE HELL USES A 2 AND 3?! I'm a 4 and 6 kinda guy, same logic is used with 5s, its a simple pip reveal and thats what I mean to suggest. Just in case you don't know euchre, I thought I better say something, its simple and everyone gets it. except apparently the 2&3 guys


Hahahaha... I know in high school, it was always the elitist hipster guys who used the 2 & 3, so they could use their arcane sideways card placement to confuse people who were "not in the know", and sometimes cheat.

They tried it on me once, "bumping" a card sideways to make their score higher. I told them they needed to untap before we started the hand, and I got the best "I feel like I should know what this means, but I don't" look I have ever seen...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nat Levan
United States
Glenside
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Hast ye seen the White Whale?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, now that I understand what you're actually doing in the game, my answer makes no sense at all.

If the rule is "make it easy so you don't have to count" and people don't want to do that, it will be hard. It's generally hard to regulate behavior that doesn't have an actual game function. On the other hand, you can list it as a "Pro tip" at the end, so people pay more attention.

If you really want to change the behavior, you'll probably have to add something. Perhaps people can remove stacks of 10 from the game in place of 10point scoring tokens.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel B-G
United Kingdom
Leeds
W Yorks
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is where I was going with my suggestion. Force them to bank them in order to score points in a more trackable form, but make it a requirement for scoring.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
maf man
United States
Waunakee (madison area)
WI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
OH! maybe rather than having a "stack" you have a card flipped over. same way as you have it now minus the 13 problem, and might be easier to understand, it is for me at least. saying your score is the total points you see on the cards like before plus flipped cards, perhaps even have 10 on the back of the card?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Graff
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
Is the problem that they are making one large stack? If that's the case, here are two ideas.

1. Could you have them stagger stack the groups of 10 points. Like the first 10 points is North-South, then the second set of 10 points is East-West, then N-S, E-W, etc?

2. Or could you provide a divider to put between the segments of 10 points in the large stack. It could be a piece of paper, or a different sized card?

Two points
---------------- <---Divider
Cards that add
up to ten points
---------------- <---Divider
Cards that add
up to ten points
---------------- <---Divider
Cards that add
up to ten points
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Becker
United States
Kentucky
flag msg tools
mbmb
Sounds like the problem with the rule is that stacks of 10 aren't always easy to make.
Have you tried stacks of 5?
Another thought is you could give the player a bonus for having 10 points, then making groups of 10 is something they are actively paying attention to.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
nat tact
United States
Indianapolis
IN
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you for all the feed back. After play testing it again we are going to going to go for a score board so that everyone knows where everyone is at. Our game is coffee based themed so we are going to add mini ceramic mugs to track progress.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sturv Tafvherd
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
In games that already use a board, I observe that they have a score track going around it.

But in some games, "hiding" the score is actually part of the game. For example, in Carcasonne, an experienced player typically hides how much his farms will score... and thus, he doesn't look like he's out-scoring everyone.

If you intend your game to explicitly keep the score public, perhaps it is simpler to just use pen and paper to track a sum ... yeah, old school. Or use counters; or even coins ... 1 point per penny, 5 points is a nickel, 13 points would be 13 pennies... or 3 pennies and a dime ... or 3 pennies and 2 nickels ... etc.

But... yeah ... I wouldn't like a rule like "keep your cards in stacks with a total VP of 10 per stack.". I'd ignore that in a heartbeat.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Stormtower wrote:
...in Carcasonne, an experienced player typically hides how much his farms will score... and thus, he doesn't look like he's out-scoring everyone.


An skilled player will have a constant running tally of every other other player's score, including their as-yet unscored farms and cloisters.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sturv Tafvherd
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
clearclaw wrote:
Stormtower wrote:
...in Carcasonne, an experienced player typically hides how much his farms will score... and thus, he doesn't look like he's out-scoring everyone.


An skilled player will have a constant running tally of every other other player's score, including their as-yet unscored farms and cloisters.


The same can be said of the OP's game, if he didn't enforce a tally.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Introduce a useless token, a trophy. Every time a player reaches another 5 VP, they get a trophy (acrylic gem, etc) that is easier to see from across the table.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Confusion Under Fire
United Kingdom
Warrington
Cheshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One of the reasons why players may be ignoring this rule is either they do not see why the rule is there, they are ignorant of its use or the portion of the rules set aside to this rule is small. The solution to both of these problems is to give more room in the rules to this section and explain clearer why the rule is included. Adding images can both expand the section and explain in detail what its function is.

I see you have now added a track. You can incorporate a track into the game board and even blend it into the artwork.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.