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Smash Up: Pretty Pretty Smash Up» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Discarding" cards that are in play rss

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frenzied coder
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Terraforming instructs you to discard cards that are in play. Igor reacts to being discarded from play. However, the Pretty Pretty Smash Up rulebook says that cards in play can never be "discarded".

http://smashup.wikia.com/wiki/Terraforming
1x Terraforming - Search the base deck for a base. Swap it with a base in play (discard all actions attached to it). Shuffle the base deck. You may play an extra minion on the new base.

http://smashup.wikia.com/wiki/Igor
4x Igor - power 2 - Ongoing: After this minion is destroyed or discarded, place a +1 power counter on one of your minions.

Pretty Pretty Smash Up rulebook page 9:
Discard: This lets you put a card that is not in play into the discard pile. It comes from your hand unless it says otherwise.


My resolution to this contradiction in the rules is that the Pretty Pretty Smash Up rulebook was actually trying to clear up confusion without changing the rules rather than cause confusion by changing the rules. Consider:
http://smashup.wikia.com/wiki/The_Spy_Who_Ditched_Me
2x The Spy Who Ditched Me - All other players must discard a minion or reveal their hand to show they have no minions.

This means discard a minion from your hand, not from play. I think that clarification is what they were going for.


Or we could take the rulebook seriously, and Igor's ability loses all meaning. Seems like the designers made a mistake.
 
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Steven Poal
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As you describe, Teraforming discards the actions played on a base, not the Minions. So Igor stays on the base and is not discarded.
 
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Jon Gameson
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All minions (and actions attached to minions) remain in play and are transferred to the new base as a result of Teraforming. Only Play on base actions are discarded. This is confirmed here: -
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/10488884#10488884

Igor's ability does not specify that it has to be discarded from play, merely that is has to discarded (or destroyed, which can only happen from play).

Cards in play are discarded when they are on a base that is scored. The rulebook states that "This does not destroy them, but might trigger abilites that happen when they go to the discard pile" (Pg 8), such as Igors.

So from Teraforming Igor would stay in play, but if he is discarded then his ability would trigger.
 
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frenzied coder
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Sorry, I may not have communicated clearly. I'm not suggesting that Terraforming discards Igor. I'm giving two examples of cards that contradict the Pretty Pretty Smash Up rules to spark a discussion on how to resolve the contradiction.

Igor's ability DOES actually specify that it has to be discard from play, because the ability is Ongoing which is only active while the card is in play (by definition of Ongoing). This means that Igor's ability does not trigger if you discard it from your hand.

Usually cards will say "goes to the discard pile" instead of "is discarded". For example:

http://smashup.wikia.com/wiki/Jumper
4x Jumper - power 2 - Ongoing: When this minion goes to the discard pile (from play), you may place it back into your hand.

If Igor were to use that term, there'd be no contradiction there.

The problem with Terraforming is that the rules list verbs that count as "affecting" a card, and "discard" is not listed as one of them. The creators had the chance to add it into the list with the rules update in Pretty Pretty Smash Up, but instead of doing that they said that cards in play can never be discarded, as if to say that they didn't need to list it as one of the "affect" verbs. If that was their reasoning though, then they overlooked Terraforming which explicitly discards cards from play.

Or does it?


An alternate interpretation of Terraforming pays close attention to the use of parentheses. Parentheses are used in card text to remind the reader of rules that the card isn't actually introducing, like minions having a minimum power 0, or Jumper's Ongoing ability only mattering if the Jumper was in play first. From this perspective, Terraforming is actually saying that base actions must be discarded since the base card is being discarded, and the actions were attached to the old base.

Now, this isn't a very good interpretation, because why do the minions get to stay when the base actions have to go? That's inconsistent. However, I think this was actually the reasoning that the card was written with. That's the only reason I can imagine that the base actions being discarded is in parentheses.
 
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Jon Gameson
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On reflection, I will agree with you regarding Igor's need to be in play in the first place in order for his ability to be in effect.

With regards to cards disagreeing with rules, they have taken this into account and have done so since the care set; "When a card disagrees with the rules, the card wins" (from the last page in each rulebook).

I'm not seeing the confusion with Teraforming and what they count as "affecting" however; from my view of it Teraforming has nothing to do with affecting.

You're alternative interpretation is closest to how it would play, regardless of how nice it is or if it is inconsistent; it's part of the effect and flow of the card.
 
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Timothy Goddard
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frenzied_coder wrote:
Now, this isn't a very good interpretation, because why do the minions get to stay when the base actions have to go?


I don't see why this is remotely inconsistent. The entire point of the card is to keep the minions but change the base--breaking that particular rule. From that point, the card could keep actions, breaking another rule, or put them into the discard pile as normal. They chose the latter, and clarified it on the card.

The term "discard" is being used perfectly consistently with the rules regarding what happens when a base goes out of play. I don't think they overlooked Terraforming when they said that cards in play can't be discarded, any more than they overlooked all the uses of the term "discard" in the scoring order.

I'm not sure what your issue is with Igor. "Discard" is there specifically to indicate that he gets to use his ability after a base breaks. See here: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/17052823#17052823
 
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Sachin Daniels
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The ability is meant to be used if it is discarded from hand, i think it would have been better labeled a special rather than an ongoing, because i agree with you that ongoing needs to be in play to be activated. Soon an faq will be out, and hopefully helps to clarify all questions.
 
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frenzied coder
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Alright, here's my argument: cards really can be discarded from play; the definition of "discard" in the Pretty Pretty Smash Up rulebook is wrong.

Here's a quote from the Pretty Pretty Smash Up rulebook page 8:

Quote:
Back to Your Corners

After scoring, players can use Special abilities that happen “after” a base scores. Then all cards still on that base go to their owners’ discard piles. This does not destroy them, but might trigger abilities that happen when they go to the discard pile.

Put the scored base into the base discard pile. Replace it with the top card of the base deck. Shuffle the base discard pile if needed. Check to see if another base is ready to be scored. Score it too, the same way.


Notice that cards "go to the discard pile" before the base does. Notice also that the cards are referred to as cards that are "still on that base", not cards that are abandoned after their base is gone or anything.

Here's another excerpt from the Pretty Pretty Smash Up rulebook page 16:

Quote:
Scoring

...

Resolve the ability on the base, discard minions there, and then replace it.


Alright, so it's easy to point out how silly this inconsistency is. They forgot to mention action cards, and now they're saying that the minions there are "discarded" instead of saying that they "go to the discard pile". So despite that they can't get their own story straight, we can learn that Igor's ability should definitely trigger from the base scoring, because he is "discarded" from the base.

Furthermore, minions being on a base means that they are still in play. This is necessary for Igor, Jumper, and Clyde 2.0 to function at this point, since their abilities are Ongoing abilities.


So my argument is that we really do have cards being discarded from play. The definition of "discard" is wrong. And as I said before, I think that mistake was introduced to clear up confusion about what "discard a minion" means and other similar abilities; that means discard from your hand, not from play. I think that's the whole cause of this confusion. AEG made a mistake.

And then also the parentheses in Terraforming should be removed. That part of the card is a deliberate, first-class part of the ability, not a reminder about some general rule. There are no general rules about when bases get discarded without them scoring; we need the Terraforming card itself to explain how to do all that. Also, discarding the actions attached to the base bypasses the definition of "Affect". (I would have said "destroy" the actions if I were making the card, but oh well.)
 
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Timothy Goddard
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frenzied_coder wrote:
So my argument is that we really do have cards being discarded from play. The definition of "discard" is wrong. And as I said before, I think that mistake was introduced to clear up confusion about what "discard a minion" means and other similar abilities; that means discard from your hand, not from play. I think that's the whole cause of this confusion. AEG made a mistake.


"This confusion" only really seems to sit with you. In that case, you may consider whether AEG made a mistake in rules drafting, or you made a mistake in the way are reading the rules as it it were a programming language.

I get the sense (somehow) that you have a coding background. A frenzied one, perhaps. I think you may be letting that background color the way you are reading the rules. I think AEG is better served by writing rules for the general population than for you in particular. There are certainly ways the rulebook could be improved, but that doesn't mean it was a "mistake" that they didn't fall down the particular rabbit hole you managed to dig for yourself.
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Sachin Daniels
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The rulebook never actually says cards in play cannot be discarded, it says discarded cards come from the hand unless otherwise stated.

Now when a base scores, the rulebook states those cards are discarded, so that is why it is still correct.

And terraforming otherwise states to discard the actions on the base. this may be intentional as to avoid Steam Queen from preventing her owner's actions on the base from being sent to the discard pile. If it said destroy the actions, she would prevent the destruction.

Look at Discards are Forever for another example.
 
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frenzied coder
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Sounds like we all agree on how the game should work then. We only disagree on whether or not the definition of "discard" is worded badly in the rules.

Here's my attempt at rewording the definition to satisfy my programmer-minded pedantic literalism:

before:
Discard: This lets you put a card that is not in play into the discard pile. It comes from your hand unless it says otherwise.

after:
Discard: This lets you put a card into the discard pile. It comes from your hand unless it says otherwise.

Even if we can't agree on whether or not the first definition is acceptable, can we agree that the second definition works without changing the rules as we know them?
 
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Sachin Daniels
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I think the definition of discard is fine. In fact combined with the rule that states card text beats rule text, it is done perfectly and satisfies all conditions and parameters.
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Timothy Goddard
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The original definition actually conveys more information about the purpose of discard vs. destroy. I don't think enough clarity is gained by removing that distinction to justify it.
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