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Subject: "Lootimeter Mode" (1.0 and 2.0 Rules hybrid w. faster playtime) rss

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Craig Thompson-Wood
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This is a thread which is under some fairly heavy discussion on the Sodapop Super Dungeon Explore forums, which can be found here:

http://community.sodapopminiatures.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4...

There is also a document which has compiled all of the rules from one of the variant supporters going by the handle "iamFanBoy". That document can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_CIE_e-3dDjqSd4uwcmbA3Mf...#

What follows in this opening post is the first post on the above linked thread. It will at least give you a sense of where I am coming from and what I am striving to achieve.

------------------------------------------------------

I would like to preface by saying that I do like this game. I am just not a fan of the current ruleset. I don't think that this means that I need to play something else, or sell my game. I think that there is a lot of good in this, and I have an idea for what I think would make it better, hence the purpose for this post.

For that reason I am playing around with tweaking the rules a bit. In this post I am going to break down my thoughts into three categories: What I Love About this Game; What I Don't Like; What My Intentions Are and SDE 1.5.

What I Love About this Game
1) Theme - I grew up in the 80's so many of these video games from which SDe draws it's influence are very near and dear to my heart. I love the feel that the 1.0 rules gave of the game being like a side-scrolling video game with the "Gauntlet" feel of killing those pesky spawn points.

2) Miniatures - I love the chibi figs. I didn't think I would like them as much as I have grown to, but I really do like them.

3) The variety - I have almost everything from the original set painted (missing one or two mini-bosses), and with all those heroes and bosses, mini-bosses plus all the Forgotten King stuff that I have, I could play this game every day for a year and probably still not hit all the possible combinations (math nerds don't correct me if I'm wrong! )

4) The Semi-Co-Op mode - I like games which are semi-co-op in this way as it allows me great opportunities for teaching new people the game. I play the consul and help to guide them through what their choices are each turn, providing advice if desired. This also makes it very accessible to kids, which, with the visuals is already very appealing to them. Also as a consul player, I can always have some control on how hard I can make it for the heroes, lightening up if I feel that they are finding it too difficult, in the name of having fun.

What I Don't Like
1) Time - the biggest issue I have with the game right now is time. In a game like this I want to play it for about two hours, no more. But I have found that every game I have played with the current ruleset is still over four hours long. What we were told, and what I was hoping for was a faster gameplay, but in my experience, this is just not the case.

2) First Tile Decides - the first tile is the acid test. There will be SO many monsters coming at the heroes on the first tile, and one, probably two mini bosses as well. If they die, then they will feel that they never stood a chance. If they survive, then they will have so much loot, that the rest of the dungeon will not provide any challenge.

3) No real choices - Sure there will be decisions to be made, such as which hero will go first, which monsters to attack, which hero gets a treasure item or who gets healed. But all of these decisions are pretty superficial and often will be a matter of common sense.

4) Drudgery - that first tile, with all the monsters is a chore to get through. I have played a handful of games now and every one ends up the same way. a slow slog through the first tile and by the time we get through it, there is no cheer of victory, more like a sigh of "thank God that's over".

What My Intentions Are
First and foremost let me say that I am not looking to do anything extreme. I do not want to suggest we go back to the 1.0 rules, nor do I want to make any major overhauls to the way the rules are now. There are, however, some aspects of the 1.0 rules which I want to blend back into the 2.0 rules, hence my naming this “SDE 1.5”.

I am looking to achieve the following:

1) Faster gameplay
2) More real decision making
3) Bring back theme of side-scroller

For the sake of anyone who is reading this for the first time now, I have cut out any of the test I had explaining the new rules on this first post. Since the time that I have introduced it, it caught on and has become a real community effort with great ideas coming in from a lot of different people.

Here is a link for the lootimeter rules as they stand now:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_CIE_e-3dDjqSd4uwcmbA3Mf...#

PLEASE NOTE - these rules are in no way official and are still being worked out. We welcome any and all suggestions and contributions to the project, we just really ask that if you are going to challenge or question any rules that you please TRY them first!

the general consensus of those that have tried this new ruleset feel that it is an absolute BLAST! Suddenly the characters are torn between thinning the hordes of monsters to killing the spawn points, to opening treasure boxes and to running forward to kill more spawn points. I have even been equipping heroes with less than optimal items at times to avoid adding them to the Boss Pile and delay having the mini boss come out until I was better prepared. It felt like the theme was back, the fun was back and the speed was definitely MUCH faster!

As always, I appreciate any and all feedback on this.
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Wow, I read through these new ideas and have to say that you sir are on to something. I like how the tension is put back into the game from the loot cards determining when a boss will come out. I am looking forward to trying this variant out!
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Brian Lee
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
You sir deserve a medal.
I love SDE, but has always felt like the game takes waaaaayyyy too long, and in certain parts of the game, it just seems to fall flat. (choices are obvious, no real tension etc.)
I own the original game and had played quite a few times, but for the reasons above, I have been holding back from Forgotten King. But now that I've seen your tweaks to the rules, I think I am going to buy the expansions and continue to play SDE!
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
ALright, so I tried this variant today and it works well. I like all the new features. The game doesn't take as long to play and feels like the original SDE with the more streamlined rules of FK. 2 Thumbs up on the variant and I probably won't play SDE without this variant.

Now we just need SDE: Legends so that we can get an objective mode instead of just straight hack and slash.
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Jerome Loisel
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Wow, this seems really promising. Good job.

Edit: I hope you guys keep working on this. Ideally, there should be a document which reads more like a rulebook than just a list of changes. It even seems like something that should become an official variant because while 2nd edition does have a lot of improvements, it does seem that some of the fun was lost along the way. I hope Soda Pop Miniatures is paying attention and decides to just go with it, though that would be extremely surprising.
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Going to have to give this a try. The game doesn't get near enough table time around here because everyone thinks that it takes way too long to play. They would rather play several other games most of the time than one game of SDE. Anything that speeds up the game will be a big boost for interest here.
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Craig Thompson-Wood
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
If anyone is trying these rules, could I ask that you please let us know which rules you are trying and how it turned out? We are still trying to get this "just right", so any feedback is incredibly helpful!


Thanks!
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
I have played this variant twice now and I am really enjoying it. Here are some of the key points I noticed with the updated rules:

• Heroes have to destroy Spawning Points ASAP
This is the main reason I like this variant. In addition to killing low level monsters to gain loot, each wound received by a Hero subtracts -1 loot card from the Loot Deck. Taking damage from low level monsters actually matters in this variant. In the original FK game, taking a few wounds is fine, since Heroes will usually recover from rolling hearts or Healing potions. However, in this variant every wound you receive places you one step closer to spawning a Super Monster that you might not be ready for. In addition, each spawning point resting on the game board gives the Console +1 free Super Monster activation if the Dungeon Boss is resting on the game board (OUCH!).

• Game speed increased
Now that we established that Heroes cannot farm spawning points for loot (unless they want to be crushed), we can see that game play moves along quickly. The quicker a game is in SDE the better!

I think forcing the Heroes to destroy Spawning points ASAP is really the meat and potatoes of this variant. The Heroes really have to change their strategy. If they just sit back and try to kill monsters, the Dungeon Boss will eventually spawn and the Console will have extra Super Monster activations for each Spawning Point still resting on the game board. The Heroes will pretty much be picked off one at a time every Console turn if this happens.

Now Heroes have to rush into tiles to kill Spawning Points and get surrounded by Minions/Elites. This gives the Console more choices on which monsters to activate during the Console's turn and causes more chaos on the board (which makes the game less boring ). In the original FK, the Heroes can basically stand back and use their "Range 8" Heroes to pick off the Minions/Elites from a distance. The Console would have to hide their monsters behind walls, waste their actions activating Stealth abilities and slowly march their way to the Heroes. By the time the Console is close enough to the Heroes, the Barbarian can just run through them with her :Rage: ability (which makes the game super boring snore).

Anyways, thank you Spazz and the others that helped develop this variant. This is really what SDE should have been with FK.
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Has anyone tried to adapt any of this to Arcade mode?
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Just to be clear, the Dungeon Boss will only ever get ONE bonus activation regardless of how many spawn points are still alive. But a Dungeon Boss with two activations is still a terrifying prospect!

And thanks for all the kudos. It has been a real team effort, and big thanks also go out to CrashGem and Insider714 for their invaluable input.
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Spazzfist wrote:
Just to be clear, the Dungeon Boss will only ever get ONE bonus activation regardless of how many spawn points are still alive. But a Dungeon Boss with two activations is still a terrifying prospect!

And thanks for all the kudos. It has been a real team effort, and big thanks also go out to CrashGem and Insider714 for their invaluable input.


Ah cool! That sounds good, since 2 or 3 extra activations would be nuts. Thanks for clearing that up!
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Dave NP
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
I gave this a try last night. And now, a long post about it.

I never played the original game, but I backed the Forgotten King KS. A friend of mine picked up the original boxed game at GenCon for cheap, and was thus in an SDE kinda mood (he had also never played either version).

Despite having backed the game, I hadn't broken out my copy up until now due to the frankly mediocre things I was reading about it here and elsewhere. But obviously I WANTED to like it and this variant, and my friend's enthusiasm, seemed like a good excuse to finally give it a shot. I wasn't really grokking the rules, though, and it seemed like understanding the original rules is necessary to understand the variant rules. So my GenCon-going buddy, having read his copy of the original game's rules, read the updated Forgotten King Rules online yesterday, and agreed to be Consul.

We played the variant that's in the google doc linked in the post, not Spazz's variant (took me a while to realize they were different) - the miniboss and boss cards are in the loot deck, 16 cards from the top for the miniboss card and 16 cards below that the boss card. I played the Questing Knight and Princess Emerald, and his roommate played the Mistmourn Shaman and the Fae Alchemist. Forgotten King was the boss, Trent was the miniboss. Four tiles, arranged in a square - Two Bramble Knight spawn points on the top two tiles, two Old Growth Hollow spawn points on the bottom two. We entered at the top right.

The heroes got stomped, not to put too fine a point on it. We never made it to the third tile. It took a little over 3 hours, but again, none of us had ever played any sort of SDE before, and were trying to learn a large variety of rules on the fly (and were drinking a lot of wine).

We took out the first Bramble Knight spawn point fairly quickly, but got a bit hung up on the second, the Old Growth Hollow on the bottom right tile. The main problem was that 6 creeps spawned when we entered the tile, and all of them immediately ran into the Questing Knight's pants (this is a weird game). The King Sprout spawned and with all those squirrels, he was able to kill the Knight pretty quickly, requiring us to use our Princess Coin (it was unclear what to do with the squirrels when he died - we decided they just disappeared).

Trent showed up around then, which meant a free activation for him each time the Consul took a turn. Meanwhile, a giant Bramble Knight army was steadily spawning around the top left spawn point - two entire spawn points worth of monsters. There was no way we were going to walk in there. Plus, god, what if there were more SQUIRRELS?!

Princess Emerald sniped the Old Growth Hollow spawn point to death, but then had to make a run for the chest - with the highest Dex, and no keys available, she had the best chance of picking the lock (as she had with the first chest). Just our luck, it turned into a Boo Booty. Which was fairly easy to take out, but it meant we only had 3 treasure cards between us, and not everyone was even fully equipped with loot cards at that point.

Trent killed Princess Emerald, so there went our second Princess Coin. Right around then the boss spawned. With the boss's free activation due to active spawn points, the Consul used him, Trent, and occasionally the King Sprout and whoever else was still sitting around (goddamn poisoning Mooks!) to grind us down. He didn't even have to dip into his massive Bramble Knight army.

Things I'd adjust/things we did wrong/questions:
I think next time we'll do Spazz's "build a boss pile" variant described in the post, rather than having the miniboss and the boss in the loot deck - we needed more time before the miniboss spawned, and I think that would help.

We were confused about equipment - the rulebook says you can heal wounds/discard status when you discard a red treasure card (even a previously equipped one), and we only got three of those total. Re-reading this thread, it looks like the blue loot cards can heal as well in this variant - we weren't doing that. It may have helped - poison (and to a lesser extent the Forgotten King's slow attack) hurt us a lot. But on the other hand, we didn't have a ton of loot to spare - the miniboss came out fast because we were taking a ton of wounds.

Equipment rules were confusing in a few ways - would discarding previously equipped loot (i.e. replacing) also heal you? Can you trade equipment? We did once, but at that point the game was pretty much decided, and it was a "why not" situation.

I'm not sure what the rule is on creeps, but I think having only one able to invade you at a time is a reasonable adjustment - pants are only so big. And having six of them cripple the Questing Knight resulted in the aforementioned ton of wounds.

As a corollary - why on earth would the heroes ever perform the Explore action?

I think that a key AND a princess coin should drop when a spawn point dies - if you want to make a run for the chest without killing the spawn point, it seems reasonable that you'd have to pick the lock or smash it, but otherwise there should be a way to get keys.

Using a potion does not take an action point, I am realizing today as I re-read the rulebook. Even when the Alchemist uses them as grenades? She never seemed to have enough potions in any case, but that would have helped.

We didn't do the "Timeout" rule for the boss. Just forgot about it - we did manage to do enough damage to him to trigger it, I think, but the endgame was pretty much a forgone conclusion at that point. Seems like it might be an unneeded complication in any case.

We spawned the Sprout despite the King Sprout being out - minor, but a mistake.

The three pieces of red treasure we did manage to get had some interesting "Princess Powers" but we weren't really clear how those worked - do they last until the next activation for the hero that uses them? Conceivably, that could have been quite a long time, if we chose other heroes to activate during our "extra" activation. We probably could have taken better advantage of that.


Overall it was fun, but we need to tighten it up a bit for next time. We'll be better with the rules, which will help.
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Ubik2000 wrote:
The main problem was that 6 creeps spawned when we entered the tile, and all of them immediately ran into the Questing Knight's pants (this is a weird game). The King Sprout spawned and with all those squirrels, he was able to kill the Knight pretty quickly, requiring us to use our Princess Coin (it was unclear what to do with the squirrels when he died - we decided they just disappeared).

Hehe.

This situation is addressed in the FAQ.

4.07 Question: If a model with Invader is on a Hero’s card, and the Hero dies, what happens to the model with Invader?
Answer: Place the model in a square adjacent to the deceased Hero’s skull token.
 
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Ubik2000 wrote:
Equipment rules were confusing in a few ways - would discarding previously equipped loot (i.e. replacing) also heal you? Can you trade equipment? We did once, but at that point the game was pretty much decided, and it was a "why not" situation.


"Quote"
If a Hero replaces a piece of equipment, the old card must be discarded and may not be equipped by another hero.

Ubik2000 wrote:
I'm not sure what the rule is on creeps, but I think having only one able to invade you at a time is a reasonable adjustment - pants are only so big. And having six of them cripple the Questing Knight resulted in the aforementioned ton of wounds.


The Rabbit Squirrel's ability does not stack. In your Pants: When a Hero makes a defense roll, reduce the result by 1 star if ANY (1 or more) Rabid Squirrels are on their card. Heroes can only lose 1 defense star from Rabid Squirrels.

Ubik2000 wrote:
As a corollary - why on earth would the heroes ever perform the Explore action?


Good question!

Ubik2000 wrote:
I think that a key AND a princess coin should drop when a spawn point dies - if you want to make a run for the chest without killing the spawn point, it seems reasonable that you'd have to pick the lock or smash it, but otherwise there should be a way to get keys.


Agreed. There needs to be some way of getting keys. When SDE Legends comes out, the keys might be needed more often.
 
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Well, there are some beneficial cards in there - the basic deck has 3/8 cards that are good for the Heroes, and some that are VERY good. It also depends on the boss as well; Roxor has even more extra Princess Coins lurking in his deck, etcetera.

Some of them I'm tempted to change, though - the Heroes draw Loot cards would be even better if it said something like, "One Hero searches through the discard pile and chooses a Loot to equip. If the Hero has any current equipment in that slot, it is discarded."

Keys from spawn points seems reasonable to me, and wouldn't have to change when doing it in Hard Mode (with Princess Coins only from Minibosses). After all, the current set of rules links spawners and chests anyway (a chest within 5 squares of the spawner) so having them linked further seems reasonable.
 
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Dave NP/Ubik2000

Very thorough post! I'll try to cover a lot of your concerns.

First and foremost, These house rules are definitely written as an add-on/mod to the existing ruleset, so a strong familiarity with the base rules is needed.

The base rules, in fact this entire game, is VERY confusing to learn. Every monster and hero has different moves and abilities and the way they all interface with each other and the poorly labeled environments is staggering. Kudos for giving it a shot with your friends.

With these rules, as in the original game, if the players do not make destroying spawn points the number 1 priority they will lose. period. Generally in classic mode the win ratio is about 50/50 so heroes should not enter the game assured of victory. The fact that you made it to the boss on your first go is impressive.

everyone make the too many squirrels in the pants mistake once and dies. no shame. My deeproot treant had 11 squirrels in his pants once. Though I suppose that make some kind of sense? They may have been looking for nuts....

Using Spazzfist's method of discarding loot to stall the timer will make the game easier, but also longer. There are other ways to increase the ease of play for heroes without adding to playtime, like having 1 less tile and spawner than the number of heroes.

keys. some people really want keys. in the end, it's your game, keys make things easier for heroes, which when you are learning the game can be important.

Potions are generated by red and green dice. when you need potions have your red dice attackers pick on wimpy minions for a better chance at generating more. When you generate pots you can give them to anyone!
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Aaron Bergman
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
If anyone wants an edited-so-it-reads-like-the-rulebook version of the above rules, then here's a link:

SDE rules for editing into the pdf

Right now there's a few things that people are testing, but if you're not interested in that part go straight to the Game Overview and read on.
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Tristan Hall
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
Thanks for putting this together. SDE seems quite long for a fairly simplistic game so I'll check these out next time we break out the game.
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Re: Super Dungeon Explore 1.5 (Rules hybrid w. faster playtime)
I like some of the idea you propose, I'll try this variant.

With my friends we tried to play with our houserules to speed up the game

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20133339#20133339

The idea is the same: the hero MUST kill the spawning point ASAP, not stay still grinding.

Thanks for sharing!
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Craig Thompson-Wood
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I updated the first post on this thread so as not to confuse people. There has been a lot of evolution in the original idea, and so this is now in keeping with those who are reading it for the first time.
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Ordered the game today, discovered this thread, and am very thankful for all your work =) I will undoubtedly try this mod out.

I'm just going to echo Vadim's question : did anyone try these rules in Arcade mode ?

Thanks !
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Very pleased to find this.

I played a bunch of Arcade Mode when this first came out. I liked some of it, but ran into some common issues.

Slow.

Monsters clump together.

So slow.

Why is this explore deck here?

I made some of my own dungeon tiles and used those for some basic random dungeon generation, and it helped a bit, but the gang system strongly promotes monster clumping. It is essentially one larger monster, with several smaller bits on the board instead of HP markers. But that's a different problem to solve!

I love the lootimeter.

I'm planning on giving Arcade Mode another go tonight.

I'm going to give your lootimeter a shot. Thanks!
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Craig Thompson-Wood
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mournful wrote:
I love the lootimeter.

I'm planning on giving Arcade Mode another go tonight.

I'm going to give your lootimeter a shot. Thanks!


Glad you are enjoying it!

I would love to hear how it works out in Arcade mode. I have been thinking of trying to apply it to that (just get rid of those cards!)


 
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Kristian Agerkvist
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Yes please, this would be awesome for Arcade mode I think.

I've been looking around for fixes and houserules before I start playing and Lootimeter sounds really exciting, but I will only be playing Arcade mode
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Cool,

I'll try to put some time in this weekend and report back.
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