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Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about cards after a Phoenixborn dies rss

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Ethan
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In a multiplayer game, what happens to cards that are under another Phoenixborns control when the cards owner dies?

This is specifically in regards to the Blood Puppet conjuration and if the Phoenixborn that played it dies before the multiplayer game is over.

I know what I think should happen, for game purposes and thematically, but I cannot find a specific rule to back up any theory. Can anyone help me out?

Cards in question:

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Matt Watkins
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I think it would be assumed that anything the now dead Phoenixborne played would also be taken away.The manual has little, to nothing about more than two player games.
 
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Don
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Re: Question about cards after a Phoenixborn
Once a card is in someone's battlefield, it is their Unit - I don't think this would be removed when the caster dies...same with alteration spells, why would they instantly be removed? IMHO.
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Kyle Reeser
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vdaoine wrote:
Once a card is in someone's battlefield, it is their Unit - I don't think this would be removed when the caster dies...same with alteration spells, why would they instantly be removed? IMHO.


Thematically speaking, I can see reasons for and against keeping such effects in play once the caster is gone--but I'm leaning toward 'remove them from play', myself. The way I look at it, those allies/conjurations/alterations require a modicum of will to keep them around; once the caster is gone, allies wander off and conjurations/alterations dissipate.

In more practical terms, saying that those cards remain in play after their caster is out of the game basically forces such people to stick around instead of moving on to another activity, lest they lose their cards.
 
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Ethan
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So what I'm seeing from everyone, so far, is that there does not appear to be an answer one way or another in the rules. Hopefully there will be an FAQ that covers it at some point.
 
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Ethan Nicholas
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Drakenfyre wrote:
So what I'm seeing from everyone, so far, is that there does not appear to be an answer one way or another in the rules.


Well, it's true that the rules do not specifically say that the cards stay in play after the Phoenixborn dies... but the rules also don't specifically stay that the cards stay in play when the Phoenixborn becomes exhausted, or receives damage, or casts a spell, or anything else a Phoenixborn might do. Rules do not generally spend a lot time talking about "and don't do anything to the components that we didn't specifically tell you to do", because that's pretty well implied.

Without a good reason to suspect otherwise, I think it's pretty clear that the rulebook as written means that the cards remain in play.
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Ethan
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dragonnyxx wrote:
Well, it's true that the rules do not specifically say that the cards stay in play after the Phoenixborn dies... but the rules also don't specifically stay that the cards stay in play when the Phoenixborn becomes exhausted, or receives damage, or casts a spell, or anything else a Phoenixborn might do. Rules do not generally spend a lot time talking about "and don't do anything to the components that we didn't specifically tell you to do", because that's pretty well implied.

Without a good reason to suspect otherwise, I think it's pretty clear that the rulebook as written means that the cards remain in play.


While I agree with your end result I don't agree with your way of getting there. The rulebook does specifically say what an exhaustion token does, what happens when something takes damage, and what happens to spells when they are cast.

Taking that reasoning, in the "Winning and Losing the Game" section on page 13 of the rules states:
"If a player’s Phoenixborn has a number of wounds on it equal to or greater than its life, that Phoenixborn is destroyed. When a player’s Phoenixborn is destroyed he is out of the game. When there is only 1 player remaining, that player wins."

You could take that to mean that the player is the only thing that changes when the Phoenixborn is destroyed...the player is out of the game. With lack of additional information this would seem to indicate there is no other change in the play state as you noted.

This is what I believed was the case when I originally posted the question but I was trying to find something in the rules to back it up.

Thoughts?
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Ethan Nicholas
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Drakenfyre wrote:
While I agree with your end result I don't agree with your way of getting there. The rulebook does specifically say what an exhaustion token does, what happens when something takes damage, and what happens to spells when they are cast.

Well, of course the rulebook describes those effects. It also describes the effects of a defeated Phoenixborn. My point is that in all of these other situations, you would never suggest also doing other things beyond what the rulebook tells you to do. I am suggesting that (absent clarification from Plaid Hat) we apply the same logic here.

The wording for a defeated Phoenixborn is that the "player ... is out of the game". Since the rulebook doesn't say anything about the player's cards also being taken out of the game, the RaW imply that they stay in play and continue to have their effects.

Now, obviously rulebooks aren't perfect and our interpretations of them aren't always perfect. Many games' rulebooks state that, for instance, a monster is removed from play when it has a number of wound tokens equal to its life value, but don't specifically tell you to discard the wound tokens when you discard the monster -- they're assuming that you're going to figure that part out without having to be told. So you could potentially argue that they didn't bother to state that the defeated Phoenixborn's cards are removed from play, perhaps figuring that it was obvious and didn't require a specific call-out.

To that, I would argue that Ashes' rulebook has in fact gone out of the way to point out that tokens on defeated units are removed from play. It seems that if they wanted the cards from a defeated Phoenixborn to be removed from play, they would have said that as well. Furthermore, having tokens from defeated monsters remain on the battlefield absent the monster doesn't make any sense (what does a status token just sitting on the table mean?) and everybody would assume that they are discarded without having to be told that, but the rulebook nevertheless went to the trouble of making it explicit. Cards remaining from defeated Phoenixborn, on the other hand, do make sense; there's no particular reason to assume that all of the creatures on the battlefield should suddenly die just because their boss died.

So, I remain open to the possibility that a future FAQ / erratum will correct my understanding of this issue, but for the time being it seems fairly clear that RaW are that the cards stay in play.
 
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Kyle Reeser
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dragonnyxx wrote:
Drakenfyre wrote:
While I agree with your end result I don't agree with your way of getting there. The rulebook does specifically say what an exhaustion token does, what happens when something takes damage, and what happens to spells when they are cast.

Well, of course the rulebook describes those effects. It also describes the effects of a defeated Phoenixborn. My point is that in all of these other situations, you would never suggest also doing other things beyond what the rulebook tells you to do. I am suggesting that (absent clarification from Plaid Hat) we apply the same logic here.

The wording for a defeated Phoenixborn is that the "player ... is out of the game". Since the rulebook doesn't say anything about the player's cards also being taken out of the game, the RaW imply that they stay in play and continue to have their effects.

Now, obviously rulebooks aren't perfect and our interpretations of them aren't always perfect. Many games' rulebooks state that, for instance, a monster is removed from play when it has a number of wound tokens equal to its life value, but don't specifically tell you to discard the wound tokens when you discard the monster -- they're assuming that you're going to figure that part out without having to be told. So you could potentially argue that they didn't bother to state that the defeated Phoenixborn's cards are removed from play, perhaps figuring that it was obvious and didn't require a specific call-out.

To that, I would argue that Ashes' rulebook has in fact gone out of the way to point out that tokens on defeated units are removed from play. It seems that if they wanted the cards from a defeated Phoenixborn to be removed from play, they would have said that as well. Furthermore, having tokens from defeated monsters remain on the battlefield absent the monster doesn't make any sense (what does a status token just sitting on the table mean?) and everybody would assume that they are discarded without having to be told that, but the rulebook nevertheless went to the trouble of making it explicit. Cards remaining from defeated Phoenixborn, on the other hand, do make sense; there's no particular reason to assume that all of the creatures on the battlefield should suddenly die just because their boss died.

So, I remain open to the possibility that a future FAQ / erratum will correct my understanding of this issue, but for the time being it seems fairly clear that RaW are that the cards stay in play.


I don't agree that it's all that clear. If a player's cards stick around after his or her Phoenixborn has been defeated, that suggests that those cards can still be used by that player; while he/she (presumably) can't summon any new allies or conjurations, he/she could conceivably attack with the ones that were already on the battlefield, and perhaps go on to avenge their Phoenixborn's death (possibly tying the game). As you already observed, however, a player whose Phoenixborn is defeated is out of the game--which implies that he or she is no longer participating in that game, and no longer has any way to affect the outcome.
 
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Bill Reed
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I checked with designer Isaac Vega. I asked him, "in a 4 player game, if Jessa dies first, what happens to the puppets she's played?"

Isaac wrote:
if on another player's battlefield they remain in play, if they were on hers they are removed from the game
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Donny Behne
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Added to the FAQ (about what happens to an eliminated Phoenixborn's cards in a 3-4 player game).
 
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