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Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Revealing yourself as a Betrayal rss

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Dawid Cichy
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Did anyone playtested do reveal himself as a betrayal at the beginning of the game and ask for Exiling?

Why? Because I wonder does it not pays for him (and everyone else). Exiled Betrayal looses his goal against Colony (Morale 0) gaining new easy or medium goal. If Exiled quickly Traitor knows his Exile goal and does not have to worry about being exile at the end of the game when he'll be unable to reach new goal. Additionally his presence do not count to Crisis and some scenario goals - it can help him winning altogether with Survivors. He cannot help with a Crisis, but dead of his character do not lower Morale.

Please comment if you saw game like this.
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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If someone stood up and said "I am the Betrayer, please Exile me", why would the rest of the survivors help him out and make his job easier?
If the Betrayer was known from the first turn of the game, I say don't exile him until near the end of the game, for exactly the reasons you point out.

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Clyde W
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jozxyqk wrote:
If someone stood up and said "I am the Betrayer, please Exile me", why would the rest of the survivors help him out and make his job easier?
If the Betrayer was known from the first turn of the game, I say don't exile him until near the end of the game, for exactly the reasons you point out.

Even if the betrayer tanked every single crisis, ate all the food, made the camp dirty, attracted zombies to populated locations, etc?
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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clydeiii wrote:
jozxyqk wrote:
If someone stood up and said "I am the Betrayer, please Exile me", why would the rest of the survivors help him out and make his job easier?
If the Betrayer was known from the first turn of the game, I say don't exile him until near the end of the game, for exactly the reasons you point out.

Even if the betrayer tanked every single crisis, ate all the food, made the camp dirty, attracted zombies to populated locations, etc?


Maybe not "until the end of the game", but "until he is near his victory condition and/or the survivors are floundering". Definitely not right away on turn 1.
 
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Clyde W
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jozxyqk wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
jozxyqk wrote:
If someone stood up and said "I am the Betrayer, please Exile me", why would the rest of the survivors help him out and make his job easier?
If the Betrayer was known from the first turn of the game, I say don't exile him until near the end of the game, for exactly the reasons you point out.

Even if the betrayer tanked every single crisis, ate all the food, made the camp dirty, attracted zombies to populated locations, etc?


Maybe not "until the end of the game", but "until he is near his victory condition and/or the survivors are floundering". Definitely not right away on turn 1.
Why not? Just out of spite? It's a co-op (sorta)...don't you want the poor guy, who through no fault of his own, was the unlucky bastard to draw the betrayer card?
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Xavier A. Perez
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You basically need to exile the betrayer as soon as he becomes disrupting, and having a guy in the team who wants to be exiled and is clearly not looking after the Colony is pretty darn disrupting.

I don't know if it's a great tactic for the Betrayer himself, but if he does this, then the colony really needs to pull the trigger on him.
 
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Dawid Cichy
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Xapi wrote:
I don't know if it's a great tactic for the Betrayer himself, but if he does this, then the colony really needs to pull the trigger on him.

And that is a question. I call: if it is good tactic for Betrayal then Betrayal or Exile mechanic is broken. I'm going to test it and if anyone of you have an experience in this matter, please share.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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It violates the rule that says you are not supposed to reveal your secret objective. So you can't come out and say, "I am a betrayer."

However, if someone just started doing betrayer-like things in order to get themselves exiled, I think the non-betrayers would have no choice but to exile him before too much damage was done.

As to whether a betrayer would really want to do that or not, I'm not so sure. It's true that the new exiled objective gets rid of the requirement for Morale to be 0, but it doesn't get replaced with something "easy" or "medium"; it gets replaced by something difficult. For example, "There are no item cards left in at least one location," or "At least 4 survivors that you do not control have at least 1 wound token on them of any type."

Plus, an exiled player can usually still win even if Morale does go to 0, so there still isn't much of a reason for the other players to completely trust them. For the rest of the game, you will have been outed as "that guy that could screw us at any moment."

And it doesn't make much thematic sense, if that's important to you. You are given a secret objective at the beginning of the game that tells you your role and motivations. The betrayal stories in the back of the rulebook describe the reasons that this person is behaving this way. And so on the first turn you decide you're not going to do that and try to get yourself exiled? That's sort of like the lead character in a play deciding to do something different than what's in the script.
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This is a story driven, quasi-role-playing game that simulates a situation. To try to "game" the system this way in order to win screws up everything! Get into your role and enjoy the experience. If you are wanting to utilize efficiency to beat the game, play a euro! This type of game is about texture and the experience it creates.
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mathew rynich
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I agree with David. It may seem like this is a good play for the betrayer, but it's sometimes easier to tank morale than to beat those exiled objectives. It's real easy to hide as the betrayer since some legit objectives require you to do some pretty damaging stuff to the other players.
 
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James
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Ertai_PL wrote:
if it is good tactic for Betrayal then Betrayal or Exile mechanic is broken.


If this happens, it's the players that are broken, not the mechanic.
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Wouldn't the other players just go attack the exiled betrayer? If you're worried about it, use the player elimination variant and just smash the exiled betrayer before he can even do anything.

Seems like it'd be in the betrayers best interest to stay as hidden as possible!
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Why would they attack the betrayer after they've been exiled? They are no longer a betrayer at that point. In fact, their first goal may have been changed to having the main objective succeed. They could be a good guy now!

The remaining survivors should definitely keep an eye on the exiled player, but just attacking them outright would be unreasonable.

The exiled mechanic is interesting in that players are not eliminated from the game, which can be annoying, but it also keeps the intrigue going.
 
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Clyde W
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eviljelloman wrote:
Ertai_PL wrote:
if it is good tactic for Betrayal then Betrayal or Exile mechanic is broken.


If this happens, it's the players that are broken, not the mechanic.
100% false. If the game encourages you to get exiled, why do you blame the players?
 
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clydeiii wrote:
eviljelloman wrote:
Ertai_PL wrote:
if it is good tactic for Betrayal then Betrayal or Exile mechanic is broken.


If this happens, it's the players that are broken, not the mechanic.
100% false. If the game encourages you to get exiled, why do you blame the players?

Because the game does not encourage you to get exiled to avoid the betrayer agenda, it encourages you to play your role.

There are scenarios where your exile agenda blends nicely with your current secondary so the punishment for an exile is minimum, but more often than not an exiled betrayer has the hardest win condition, so the game if anything discourages being caught because you're going to have a hard time passing both agendas.
 
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James
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clydeiii wrote:
eviljelloman wrote:
Ertai_PL wrote:
if it is good tactic for Betrayal then Betrayal or Exile mechanic is broken.


If this happens, it's the players that are broken, not the mechanic.
100% false. If the game encourages you to get exiled, why do you blame the players?


I've had this sort of discussion with you far too many times already, so I'll make a simple statement and then that's my last comment on the topic.

The game does no such thing. The only thing that "encourages" people to get exiled is trying to turn this deeply story-and-role-oriented game into a min/max puzzle, sucking all the life and fun out of it.

I blame the players for being willing to try to "break" the game, and with it everyone else's fun, for the sake of possibly, maybe, getting a slightly higher chance of winning two hours from now. It's poor sportsmanship and in no way reflective of what any normal, non-weirdly-competitive boardgame dork would do.

A game isn't broken when people act in a ridiculous fashion because they've injected their own goals that override the (here comes the cursed phrase BGG nerds hate to hear....) spirit of the game.


And thusly, my subscription to this thread was removed.
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Actually, we did talk about it after we played it the last time. The guy who got the betrayer card said he is really bad in games that have some sort of hidden betrayer/spy (if he gets the betrayer/spy role), and we talked about it that it would be possible to confront the other players really early.

I am a bit surprised that this is labeled "breaking" the spirit of the game. Open conflicts between survivor groups is a recurring theme in a lot of zombie movies. I'm not sure if it is a viable strategy for the betrayer to openly go into conflict in the beginning of the game, but I can't see how this breaks the game. I actually think the exile cards are balanced for this, because if a betrayer is exiled later in the game he seldom has the chance to react to the new win condition.

So why is the Betrayal or Exile mechanic broken if it is a possible strategy?
 
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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Incredibul wrote:
Actually, we did talk about it after we played it the last time. The guy who got the betrayer card said he is really bad in games that have some sort of hidden betrayer/spy (if he gets the betrayer/spy role), and we talked about it that it would be possible to confront the other players really early.

I am a bit surprised that this is labeled "breaking" the spirit of the game. Open conflicts between survivor groups is a recurring theme in a lot of zombie movies. I'm not sure if it is a viable strategy for the betrayer to openly go into conflict in the beginning of the game, but I can't see how this breaks the game. I actually think the exile cards are balanced for this, because if a betrayer is exiled later in the game he seldom has the chance to react to the new win condition.

So why is the Betrayal or Exile mechanic broken if it is a possible strategy?


One thing that causes a strategy to be called "broken", is if it's always the best strategy every game. If a betrayer can always do better in the game if they immediately start causing overruns, fighting other survivors, eating all the food, etc., on Turn 1, just so they can get exiled and get a new secret objective, then that would be considered broken.

Because then the question becomes, "Why wouldn't I always do that?" Immediately followed by, "If betrayers always do that, what is the point of having a betrayer at all?"

But some of us disagree as to whether it's always the best strategy for a betrayer or not. I don't think it is, because the exiled secret objectives are almost always much more difficult to achieve than the betrayer secret objectives.

It would be interesting if Plaid Hat tested this all out during playtesting and could come here and tell us what the results were. But lacking that, we would just have to try it out ourselves and report back.
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