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Subject: Starting VP points rss

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Kirsha107 Kirsha107
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In scenario 10, the VP marker must be placed in the 9 space allied side. The scenario assigns no VP point to any of the five objectives, of which three are controlled by the Russians and two by the Germans.

The way I understand the rules is that VP points are granted only for controlling objectives, killing enemy units or exiting one ´s own units . The playbook states that the initial VP level takes into acccount any open objective chit indicated in the OBJECTIVE CHITS box.


On what basis is a starting VP advantage granted to the Russians if objectives are initially worth zero (the only open objective chit listed in the OBJECTIVE CHITS box is chit W which deals only with VP points granted for exiting units) ?

Scenario 10 is only taken as an example. The same issue arises in other scenarios as well.
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Dan Huffman
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Scenarios are considered to start after all the VPs have been allocated. But if you start with a random objective, then you adjust the VP chart to reflect those objectives as "new." Therefore, if a scenario designates that Obj 5 is 2 VPs and also that you draw an open objective. Then you happen to draw that Obj 5 is worth 3 more....whomever owns Obj 5 gets 3 points and if the opponent later gains that Obj, there is a 10 point swing for that player.

Note that secret objectives are NOT counted until AFTER they become open (usually at the game end, but sometimes due to events).

Hope that is clear. It is 5:45 AM here and I just woke up. :-p
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Herb Boutilier
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I have had some difficulty conceptualizing the exact point Ed is making. For example, in scenario 10, the scenario does not initially designate or indicate in any manner how many VP's each building is worth at the start of play. In our current game, Dan, when you took Obj. 5, you took 2 VP's for it for the Axis, and of course i lose 2 VP,, but I assumed that was because your secret obj. chit was for building 5, and it was worth 2vp. nowhere else on the scenario card does it indicate that building 5 is worth 2 vp. ?????
 
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Henrythesecond
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Ed Bertrand wrote:
In scenario 10, the VP marker must be placed in the 9 space allied side. The scenario assigns no VP point to any of the five objectives, of which three are controlled by the Russians and two by the Germans.

The way I understand the rules is that VP points are granted only for controlling objectives, killing enemy units or exiting one ´s own units . The playbook states that the initial VP level takes into acccount any open objective chit indicated in the OBJECTIVE CHITS box.


On what basis is a starting VP advantage granted to the Russians if objectives are initially worth zero (the only open objective chit listed in the OBJECTIVE CHITS box is chit W which deals only with VP points granted for exiting units) ?

Scenario 10 is only taken as an example. The same issue arises in other scenarios as well.


I think you may gain an insight if you consider how the starting VPs are decided when using the Random Scenario Generator. Depending on each player's force selection, a number of VPs will be given to the opposing side. This is then offset by Support Rolls, Fortifications etc.

Given this, I assume that the historical scenarios will be constructed using this framework of force selection/VPs, therefore the relative force values in a given Historical scenario will determine the 'base' VP level.

That's my best guess, anyway.

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Ed Bertrand wrote:
The way I understand the rules is that VP points are granted only for controlling objectives, killing enemy units or exiting one ´s own units . The playbook states that the initial VP level takes into acccount any open objective chit indicated in the OBJECTIVE CHITS box.


Well, there are scenarios where you just get some bonus VP to balance the scenario out, right?

For example #14 At the Crossroads gives the Axis player starting VPs although the only open objective chit gives bonus points for exits off the map.
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Kirsha107 Kirsha107
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Herb,

My point is the following. Senario 10 assigns no value to the objective points. Therefore, at the start of the game, before drawing the objective chits, the global VP value of all the objective points taken together is zero.

Yet one party, in this case the Russians, is given a 9 VP advantadge at the start, despite the fact that the objective points it controls have no VP value. My question is how is this initial VP advantage determined? Am I missing something or could it be just a decision of the scenario designer to grant the Russian side an edge at the start for play balance reasons? If that was the intent,the rule book should have been more explicit about it, IMHO.
 
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Yeah, this happens in some scenarios as I stated. One other example is #14.
The VP advantage is probably given to balance the scenario.
 
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Mark Buetow
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Ed Bertrand wrote:
Herb,

My point is the following. Senario 10 assigns no value to the objective points. Therefore, at the start of the game, before drawing the objective chits, the global VP value of all the objective points taken together is zero.

Yet one party, in this case the Russians, is given a 9 VP advantadge at the start, despite the fact that the objective points it controls have no VP value. My question is how is this initial VP advantage determined? Am I missing something or could it be just a decision of the scenario designer to grant the Russian side an edge at the start for play balance reasons? If that was the intent,the rule book should have been more explicit about it, IMHO.


The forces themselvs have a VP value. As someone noted above, you can see this when you do a Random Scenario Generator game.

Suppose, for example, that the German force was worth 18 VP and the Russians worth 9VP. In a Random Scenario, this would give an initial 9VP to the Russians. As also mentioned, there may be other considerations, such as fortifications, etc. that alter tha total.

The point is: starting VPs are not only based on Objective values. Neither are they (in most cases I can think of) just "bonus" VPs given to balance a scenario.
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Jim Jackson

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Quote:
Neither are they (in most cases I can think of) just "bonus" VPs given to balance a scenario.


But in a Random Generated Scenario, such as the 18vp German Force vs the 9vp Russian Force, isn't that mechanic using the vp's to balance out the difference in the force size?

I would think that some published scenarios have considered balance of the forces when setting initial vp's.
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Dan Huffman
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hbmaine wrote:
I have had some difficulty conceptualizing the exact point Ed is making. For example, in scenario 10, the scenario does not initially designate or indicate in any manner how many VP's each building is worth at the start of play. In our current game, Dan, when you took Obj. 5, you took 2 VP's for it for the Axis, and of course i lose 2 VP,, but I assumed that was because your secret obj. chit was for building 5, and it was worth 2vp. nowhere else on the scenario card does it indicate that building 5 is worth 2 vp. ?????



Correct, Herb. I need Vassal to hide the chit from me. If I didn't do it already to you, then I think I gave Erik some VPs and had to take them away too. LOL I'm not very good at keeping secrets. (Well, maybe a little, but I leave that to your imagination!)
 
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Dan Huffman
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Ed Bertrand wrote:
Herb,

My point is the following. Senario 10 assigns no value to the objective points. Therefore, at the start of the game, before drawing the objective chits, the global VP value of all the objective points taken together is zero.

Yet one party, in this case the Russians, is given a 9 VP advantadge at the start, despite the fact that the objective points it controls have no VP value. My question is how is this initial VP advantage determined? Am I missing something or could it be just a decision of the scenario designer to grant the Russian side an edge at the start for play balance reasons? If that was the intent,the rule book should have been more explicit about it, IMHO.


Oh, I missed this too, Ed.

The VPs are given to balance out the force sizes. Depending on qualities and quantities of each side, not to mention (as mentioned above) fortifications and just general play-through....the VPs are adjusted accordingly. When I do my scenarios, it is generically what Chad's DYO advice is, tempered by how I think the two forces will interact. To be honest, I usually give Italians and French an extra VP or two just "because."
 
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Just to be pedantic you can also gain VPs for this event;

E49. Command & Control
When this Event occurs, the receiving player
counts the number of Objectives [2.3] he currently
controls and gains that many VPs.

Because of the way cards are well shuffled, or rather not very well shuffled, I have seen this event appear several times in the same game with drastic results.


There is another reason for a difference in VP at the start of a game. If VP counts were equal you could find both players who felt their positions were well defended, just sitting and waiting for the other player to start an attack. By having a mismatch of VPs it makes one player come out and attack. You also have to be careful not to give the attacker a plus VP count or else he will have no inclination to come out and attack.
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Maciej Czerwiec
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Falcon2 wrote:
Quote:
Neither are they (in most cases I can think of) just "bonus" VPs given to balance a scenario.


But in a Random Generated Scenario, such as the 18vp German Force vs the 9vp Russian Force, isn't that mechanic using the vp's to balance out the difference in the force size?

I would think that some published scenarios have considered balance of the forces when setting initial vp's.


Exactly - they are balanced, so they have differences in VP at start of game.
When you open Mediterranean playbook, at page 6 you can find Point Values of units. When you design scenario you have to compare all the points, and using informations from page 7 you calculate VP's at the start of the game.

For example - in scenario 10 German forces have 2250 Point Value, and Russian 1355 (Schrader is 409, German Rifle squad is 100, Bikovets is 253 etc.). When we divide it by 100 we arrive at 22,50 and 13,55. Now we calculate the difference, which is around 9, and we arrive at starting VP value - 9 for Russians.

This is also how you decide which side will be attacking and which will be scenario defender. It also forces attacking player to move forward and try to kill enemy units/exit map etc.

Hope it's clear and my english is sufficient!
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Mark Buetow
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Falcon2 wrote:
Quote:
Neither are they (in most cases I can think of) just "bonus" VPs given to balance a scenario.


But in a Random Generated Scenario, such as the 18vp German Force vs the 9vp Russian Force, isn't that mechanic using the vp's to balance out the difference in the force size?

I would think that some published scenarios have considered balance of the forces when setting initial vp's.


That's what I said, or at least intended to say. The forces themselves are assigned a value and that will establish beginning VPs to some extent.
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