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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » General

Subject: What would you have done? rss

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David Pontier
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The National Championship was at Gen Con this year. My friend Kyle, who I’ve probably played against 20-30 times, was playing in the semi final game: Top 4. The other game was over, so there was a crowd of maybe 20 people watching this game. There was about 2 minutes left. Soontir was unhurt with his stealth device still intact. Kyle was flying Dash. Dash had only 1 hull left, but he still had Chewie alive on board, so he essentially had 3 hitpoints left. His Mangler cannon had 0 chance of hitting Soontir, so his only hope was to survive until time ran out and he would get a full win on points.

On what I felt would be the last turn because of time, Soontir got a range 3 shot on Dash. Dash had barrel rolled to try to get out of range, but Soontir was able to boost just into range 3. He attacked and got three hits. Kyle rolled defense dice and got no evades. Three hits. Chewie sacrifices himself and Dash still dies. Game over. Right?

I was kind of stunned because as I was watching the game unfold I was sure Kyle was going to win. But through a few unfortunate rolls and firing arcs it had come down to this. I stared at the green dice Kyle had just rolled trying to will one of them to be an evade while the other player was celebrating. But they refused to change: a blank and an eye. Two dice. But it was a range 3 shot.

“You only rolled two dice!”

I blurted this out without really thinking. I desperately wanted Kyle to win, and when I saw he had made a mistake, I shouted it out without thinking. Everyone stopped congratulating the winner and stared at the 2 dice. Everyone instantly knew that Kyle should have rolled 3 dice in defense, but didn’t know what to do. Kyle did know what to do. He picked up another green dice and rolled it: an evade. Now Kyle was celebrating. Time had definitely ended by now. He flipped Chewie over to block the remaining two hits and Dash was still alive.

Obviously the other player called foul. An FFG Judge was summoned and the debate began. In my head there should be no debate. If it had been a range 2 shot and Kyle had accidentally rolled 3 defense dice and someone had pointed it out, then his opponent would surly have made him reroll it. The fact that this mistake hurt his opponent shouldn’t change the fact that the mistake should be corrected.

I was more concerned if I should have said anything at all. What would you have done?

Earlier in the game the other player’s decimator was stressed and he had Ysanne onboard. I’ve never played with Ysanne before, but in my head I thought it was easy to get confused between a free evade token and a free evade action. Ysanne provides the latter, so you can’t get a free evade action when you are stressed. I watched the Imperial player like a hawk to see if he was going to try to add an evade token while stressed. I told myself that even if he did, I would not say anything. I wasn’t playing and it wasn’t my job to police the game. The imperial never did try to add an evade, so it didn’t matter, but I remember telling myself that even if he did, I shouldn’t say anything.

There was another point in the game where the Imperial player kind of forgot to take the evade action. I say kind of because he had the evade token in his hand but never added it to his ship. When he was attacked, he went to remove the evade token, but realized it was still in his hand. He made his case to Kyle, and Kyle allowed him to use the evade token.

Later in the game Kyle moved a green with Corran, instantly did a boost, and then slid the stress token that was still on the table from the last turn down to Corran and added a focus. Then he went to his shield pile to add a shield token to Corran, but the Imp player told him he really needed to have done that right after the move. Kyle didn’t make any argument in his favor, but just waited for the Imp player to decide if he would allow it. I wanted to scream out about the evade action that Kyle had let the Imp player take after the fact, but I bit my lip. It wasn’t my job to police the game. When the Imp player eventually denied him the shield token and Kyle didn’t appeal to a judge I wanted to at least make a snide comment to the Imp player about how Kyle had given him a free evade earlier, but I didn’t.

But the defense roll at the end was different in my head. Maybe if I had thought about it longer I wouldn’t have said anything, but I did.

In the end, FFG ruled in favor of Kyle, but since time hadn’t expired at the time of the defense roll, they told the players they had to take one more turn. They did, and Soontir killed Dash on the next turn, so it ended up not changing the final result.

Thoughts?
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Jason Bush
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Piqsid wrote:
it ended up not changing the final result.


All that matters.
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Andreas Krüger
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I can't keep my mouth shut when I watch a game, although I really should. It requires a lot of self control to watch a mistake being made without giving an opinion. So, I admire your self control and yes, I guess it would be a good idea to not police other players games.

Edit: I am talking about rules mistakes here. Even I manage to keep my mouth shut when someone just plays poorly.
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Jon Dennis
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If you can't keep your mouth shut, don't watch the game. Yours ended up being innocuous enough, but comments from the peanut gallery like that once cost a friend of mine a one-of-a-kind prize. Coaching during a game is wrong.
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Justin Hare
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I would generally say that you should keep your comments to yourself during a tournament game. Especially during a finals/semifinals match. People should be able to win or lose on their own merit. I've had friends try to help me during a Magic tournament and it pissed me and my opponent off.

That being said, I'm only somewhat familiar with the specifics of X-Wing's tournament format. Is their anything that says you explicitly have to roll all of your dice at once? If not, then he should be able to roll the third die. I think.
 
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Josh
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I would say there is a difference between commenting on a rule done wrong and actual coaching. If you'd said 'I don't think you can barrel roll out of the way, you had better evade' or the like *that* would be coaching. I feel it's the responsability of everyone who plays a game to be sure the rules themselves are applied fully and evenly.

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Waspinator
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There is a difference between given advice and pointing out a mistake. You don't have to use Isard's free evade action, so not using it is merely bad strategy and not an actual rules violation. Reminding someone to do it is therefore strategy advice.

Rolling your full defense dice is mandatory. Not rolling them all is an outright rules mistake and pointing it out is therefore NOT strategy advice.
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Swampy Crocker
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When we get to these high level tournaments into the final cut it always surprises me that there isn't a judge per table. Every dice roll should be verbalized. I've been playing for three years and I always say the number of dice(for both sides) out loud. If an official or even an unbiased player would be available to do that it could prevent further mistakes.
In your situation I probably would not have said anything, but I'm glad you did. After a long day people can get clumsy/forgetful and to win on a technicality would ruin the victory. The game results remained the same, but it could have changed ranking entirely.
Is X-wing a sporting event? No. But like sporting events it has rules that need to be followed and a level of competition that contributes to fair play. In other competitions such a mistake would have been quickly rectified, so here it should be as well.
That was a long-winded rant so I'll conclude with this: no matter how we feel about what happened and whether or not it is or is not someone's place to interject and help fix rules mistakes, X-wing is a game played by everyday people. Even at the highest level of competition, no one is a trained professional. We all play for one purpose: fun! Thanks to our first world champion Doug "Hothie" Kinney there is one rule that outweighs the rest: Fly Casual.
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Cletus Van Damme

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Piqsid wrote:

Later in the game Kyle moved a green with Corran, instantly did a boost, and then slid the stress token that was still on the table from the last turn down to Corran and added a focus. Then he went to his shield pile to add a shield token to Corran, but the Imp player told him he really needed to have done that right after the move.


Nowhere on the card does it say "immediately" I would have told him to take a hike on his shield denial.

As for the other part I prob would have said something too regarding the extra die.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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macgowan wrote:
If you can't keep your mouth shut, don't watch the game. Yours ended up being innocuous enough, but comments from the peanut gallery like that once cost a friend of mine a one-of-a-kind prize. Coaching during a game is wrong.

That's ridiculous to say. That's like saying no one can shout at basketball games. If the "peanut gallery" can't say anything, then they shouldn't be allowed to watch. But they are allowed to watch.

-shnar
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Jon Dennis
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Not ridiculous at all. I've seen a lot of ccg championships that kept the crown several feet away from the final table to avoid problems like this.

After reading the original post, I think Piqsid's comment was fine, just enforcing rules of the game and not coaching. I'm disappointed a judge didn't notice and point it out. There should be a judge at every table for top 8 in an event this big.

I stand by my original comment about keeping ones mouth shut about coaching or pointing out game state situations that might have been forgotten. There is no comparison to this and cheering at a sports event. Actually, maybe there is. Remember the mess the Patriots were in over wiring player headsets to intercept opponents' communications? That's probably close to what I'm talking about. It matters less in X-wing than it does in games with hidden information, but that doesn't make it okay.

Hovering over a game and commenting is none of your business and is distracting to players. It should get you kicked off the floor.
 
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Jeff Wilder

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Shadrach wrote:
I would say there is a difference between commenting on a rule done wrong and actual coaching. If you'd said 'I don't think you can barrel roll out of the way, you had better evade' or the like *that* would be coaching. I feel it's the responsability of everyone who plays a game to be sure the rules themselves are applied fully and evenly.


Yes. IMO, it is the responsibility of a spectator who knows a rule is being broken to speak up.

It sounds like this was handled perfectly.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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It's not ridiculous to keep people away from the game, it's ridiculous to think players can be next to the game watching without talking. If you're going to allow spectators, then you have to allow commentary.

-shnar
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Swampy Crocker
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macgowan wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I've seen a lot of ccg championships that kept the crown several feet away from the final table to avoid problems like this.

After reading the original post, I think Piqsid's comment was fine, just enforcing rules of the game and not coaching. I'm disappointed a judge didn't notice and point it out. There should be a judge at every table for top 8 in an event this big.

I stand by my original comment about keeping ones mouth shut about coaching or pointing out game state situations that might have been forgotten. There is no comparison to this and cheering at a sports event. Actually, maybe there is. Remember the mess the Patriots were in over wiring player headsets to intercept opponents' communications? That's probably close to what I'm talking about. It matters less in X-wing than it does in games with hidden information, but that doesn't make it okay.

Hovering over a game and commenting is none of your business and is distracting to players. It should get you kicked off the floor.


The crowd doesn't make rule decisions at sporting events, but there are several officials who make sure the rules are followed. That was the point I was trying to make. If an official is not available, shouldn't a knowledgeable player step in to help with rules. At out local tourneys we have the official who makes almost all the rulings, but experienced players are encouraged and occasionally asked specifically to help with rules enforcement. This is not coaching. Even at the local level our TO has admitted to me on several occasions that he struggles to not interject with someone forgetting certain things: i.e. Ysanne, recloaking Phantoms with ACD, even taking actions. All of those are optional and are not required as per the official rules. Rolling a third defense die, getting an extra attack die, taking a stress from rebel captive/Mara Jade/Bossk crew, not performing red maneuvers while stressed etc. are actual rules that are non-optional. If they can be enforced reto-actively without changing the current game state beyond a reasonable point they must be. In this case the outcome of the match was affected and could have had consequences down the line. If Mr. Pisqid had said nothing and the next match had started then it is too late obviously, but from the sounds nothing had been moved from the board and play could be continued without issue.

As another example, FFG had changed the rule regarding flying off the board edge. Your template is allowed to clear so long as no part of the base overhangs the board edge. If someone had forgotten this rule change and had only the template off the edge, but the base is wholly on the play space, but they declare the match finished, is it over? A rule was not followed correctly, the board state is preserved, the match should continue following the rules.

I applaud David Pontier for his willingness to step up and help make sure the game was played fairly and equally. He didn't remind his friend to take a forgotten action or boost to avoid an arc. In truth the other examples you gave of not speaking up also seem like valid reasons to say something. As a community we should be self policing. If someone has a hit-and-run and you see the plate would you choose not to tell the police because it wasn't your car?
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Partly reminds me of a game I was playing a few years back (wow, over a decade back now) of Warhammer. We were in a non-official tournament at a gaming store.

The game came down to a last dice roll. The person I was playing against could ONLY win if he rolled two 6's. He "accidentally" rolled three dice, and got ALL 6's. So they let his roll stand and he won.

Part of me felt like he had a better chance of rolling the 6's because he rolled 3 dice, but none the less, they didn't have him reroll.
 
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Richard Beal
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I generally agree that third parties should not interfere.

But I also agree that if something is clearly wrong - not a misinterpretation - just an error - then it should be pointed out to all parties.

Rolling less dice than you should have is easily rectified - he was entitled to roll three - he rolled two - he was always entitled to roll the extra dice - and it sounds like it was pointed out before "end phase" so play had not moved on.

An opponent deliberately "not noticing" or keeping quiet - is not being very sporting - and even less so if he tries to deny something that was due

I understand the will the win - but winning by short changing somebody is a bit dirty IMHO

If I'd been quick enough to see something similar I would have commented too - fair is fair
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Waspinator
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It's more than him being entitled to rolling three, if you read the FAQ they confirm that rolling all of your attack and defense dice is mandatory. It is an outright error to not roll them all.
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Angelus Seniores
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My opinion is that a significant part of the game is each player's skill of mastering the rules/effects; seeing or missing an opportunity to use an effect/ability, making rules mistakes to your disadvantage etc. is what shows that mastery or lack of and is same as what happens in RL with pilots mastering (or not) the airplanes they fly.

Certainly for tournaments this is an important factor
If a player makes any error only his opponent should speak up to correct it but nobody else.
the judge should only intervene when one of the players asks for it.
if a player loses because of these mistakes then he deserved it
 
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Josh
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Metal Slayer wrote:
Partly reminds me of a game I was playing a few years back (wow, over a decade back now) of Warhammer. We were in a non-official tournament at a gaming store.

The game came down to a last dice roll. The person I was playing against could ONLY win if he rolled two 6's. He "accidentally" rolled three dice, and got ALL 6's. So they let his roll stand and he won.

Part of me felt like he had a better chance of rolling the 6's because he rolled 3 dice, but none the less, they didn't have him reroll.


Ma5hmatically he had a 1/36 chance of winning on 2 dice. The result he got on 3 dice was 1/216. If odds are what you are looking for. He beat them.

If he had been able to toll 3 keep 2. Then he would have had better than 1/36 odds.
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David Pontier
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When I made top 8 last year at nationals, we had an FFG person standing there watching the whole game. We only had one incident where we needed him. I was flying Corran. After all the attacks in the round, I just stood there staring at the map trying to figure out if I should use Corran's double tap. Admittedly I did not say that I was thinking about it and I took a long time. When I looked up and saw that my opponent was doing his dials, I quickly stopped him and said I was going to take my second shot. My opponent complained, but the FFG was right there and stepped in instantly to make the ruling.

In the game last week that I reference above. There were FFG guys around the game, but no one watching intently (or at least not as intently as I was apparently). I would have loved for an FFG guy to have stepped in and demand the third dice be rolled, but they didn't. Even better they should have a guy there that announces each die roll and monitors every action taken.

However, I also agree that players should police themselves. I am not accusing the Imp player of not doing this. Kyle and everyone else watching didn't notice that he had rolled only 2 dice when he should have rolled 3, so it could have just as easily escaped his attention as everyone else. And maybe FFG was watching and also missed it.

X-wing will continue to grow in popularity, and eventually there will be an incident where someone tries to cheat or a huge mistake is made that could have been avoided with an official, and top 8 games will require officials to monitor play.
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Eric B.
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I don't know, I was watching this Top 4 too (as everyone was), and I don't think it was as contentious as your re-telling of it, Piqsid.


Throughout the course of the game, both players had gravitated toward a more firm stance on missed opportunities, and there's nothing wrong with that at the final tables of a huge premiere event. One thing your version of the story leaves out is that before the last turn issue you noted, Kyle made a comment along the lines that he knowingly did not take a stress from Rebel Captive when Phil forget to enforce it (and Dash K-Turned the turn afterwards which he would not have been able to do stressed). To me, this is a more questionable issue than the R2D2 case, because Rebel Captive is a must and not a "may" (like R2D2). The number of dice rolled during an attack is closer to a "must" and not a "may," I think, but one could note that Kyle had already neglected one must in his favor.

Either way, of course, missed opportunities are entirely at the player's discretion. Jeff B opted to allow Rick S to recloak and obtain a Focus well past the opportunity to do so, effectively handing Rick the National Championship last year. Jeff B would have been just as much entitled to tell Rick no and thus secure the National Championship for himself. It's up to individual players to decide how they personally wish to handle these cases, and as spectators and community members we should not judge them or cause them any grief for their decisions (recall Rick's negative emotional state after the championship last year--no player should feel bad from a game, and Jeff was quick to reassure Rick that he's a good player and that he deserved the win as much as anyone else).


Either way, spectators absolutely should not participate in the game though, and rather than blurt out issues they observe for anything terribly egregious they can inform one of the judges (there were often three present during the Top 4 matches), and the judge can determine what if anything should be done. I think in this case the judges made the right call. Time had not officially expired as hands were shook and congratulations given, so there would have been one more turn either way.


Fortunately, in neither case did it matter. Phil still won with the extra turn, and Corran would have died whether or not R2D2 had regened the shield that turn.
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Eric B.
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shnar wrote:
It's not ridiculous to keep people away from the game, it's ridiculous to think players can be next to the game watching without talking. If you're going to allow spectators, then you have to allow commentary.

-shnar


I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've never been in the crowd of a premiere X-Wing game. Because I've been in several, and this year's final Gencon match had about 30-40 people gathered around watching. And no one offered commentary, strategy advice, or shouted anything. It was a tense, exciting, but respectfully silent affair.

Maybe most people just have more willpower and self-restraint than you give them credit?
 
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Peter Kraft
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How much time was left on the game after he just rolled two dice? Was last round called?
 
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The way I looked at it, at the time, was he had a better chance of rolling two 6's on three dice than he had on two dice.

But none the less, three sixes was an awesome roll to make.

Had it been two 6's and a 5 he rolled (or something like that), I think I would have been more firm in wanting a reroll.


Shadrach wrote:
Metal Slayer wrote:
Partly reminds me of a game I was playing a few years back (wow, over a decade back now) of Warhammer. We were in a non-official tournament at a gaming store.

The game came down to a last dice roll. The person I was playing against could ONLY win if he rolled two 6's. He "accidentally" rolled three dice, and got ALL 6's. So they let his roll stand and he won.

Part of me felt like he had a better chance of rolling the 6's because he rolled 3 dice, but none the less, they didn't have him reroll.


Ma5hmatically he had a 1/36 chance of winning on 2 dice. The result he got on 3 dice was 1/216. If odds are what you are looking for. He beat them.

If he had been able to toll 3 keep 2. Then he would have had better than 1/36 odds.
 
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Josh
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Metal Slayer wrote:
The way I looked at it, at the time, was he had a better chance of rolling two 6's on three dice than he had on two dice.

But none the less, three sixes was an awesome roll to make.

Had it been two 6's and a 5 he rolled (or something like that), I think I would have been more firm in wanting a reroll.


Shadrach wrote:
Metal Slayer wrote:
Partly reminds me of a game I was playing a few years back (wow, over a decade back now) of Warhammer. We were in a non-official tournament at a gaming store.

The game came down to a last dice roll. The person I was playing against could ONLY win if he rolled two 6's. He "accidentally" rolled three dice, and got ALL 6's. So they let his roll stand and he won.

Part of me felt like he had a better chance of rolling the 6's because he rolled 3 dice, but none the less, they didn't have him reroll.


Ma5hmatically he had a 1/36 chance of winning on 2 dice. The result he got on 3 dice was 1/216. If odds are what you are looking for. He beat them.

If he had been able to toll 3 keep 2. Then he would have had better than 1/36 odds.


Oh most definitely. Any 2 6 on 3 dice result would have been a reroll (less than 2 6's wouldn't have mattered anyway so no reroll required)
 
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