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Mistfall» Forums » Rules

Subject: Crows "Infine loop" solutions. rss

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Michał Pietrek
Poland
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Hello

The original post that explains problem:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1406610/infinite-loop

Initial designers solution:
"treat the Utility belt's Reflex as saying "discard this card" instead of "discard this card or place it on top of your deck"."

I find this solution too radical (for "Utility Belt" card and for Crows gameplay), so I'd like to propose other ways to eliminate "Infine loop":

1) Change "Utility Belt" card by making two separate "Fast actions":
a) first for "Gear" cards with no further modifications;
b) and second for "Stealth" cards with either:
- put 1 "Stealth" card to the bottom of the deck, then discard this card or place it on top of your deck;
- put 1 "Stealth" card to the top of the deck, and discard this card or place it on bottom of your deck;

IMO this may be great solution becouse it wouldn't affect other "Gear" cards use and wouldn't force players to accelerate depleting the deck.

2) Change one "Versatility" card "Special" section:
a) "draw 1 card"
b) or: "draw 2 cards form the bottom of deck"

3) Remove one "Versatility" card from advanced feat deck.

Other gamers propositions from original thread:

Daniel Becerra Aller - "Perhaps another solution to the belt would be "put this card on the bottom of your deck" instead of "at the top of your deck"."

Jerry Tresman - "limit Versatility to only one to be used per round and/or cannot be placed in your hand in the same round it is discarded"



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Alvaro Perez
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I don't remember where i read this, but the change written there was:

Utility Belt (card 126)

Remove “or place it at the top of your deck” part from the card’s text box.

Add (new paragraph): Special: If this card is in your discard pile, move it to the top of your deck after you draw cards at the end of your Hero Turn.” If needed, delete the flavour text from the card to fit this in.
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B. G. Kubacki
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varoknight wrote:
Remove “or place it at the top of your deck” part from the card’s text box.

Add (new paragraph): Special: If this card is in your discard pile, move it to the top of your deck after you draw cards at the end of your Hero Turn.” If needed, delete the flavour text from the card to fit this in.


Yes, this is the official ruling on how the Utility Belt card will be modified in the upcoming card errata. The "If needed..." part will not appear on the card, for rather obvious reasons.
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Michał Pietrek
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Thank you guys, I missed that.
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John T
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just out of curiosity, when will the errata file be posted?
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Jerry Tresman
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johnneh wrote:
just out of curiosity, when will the errata file be posted?

Time Passes - Ominous Silence.
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Tore Halvorsen
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An official errata and FAQ would be really nice.

Right now, there are pretty hard to find everything.
 
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B. G. Kubacki
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For now please treat the BGG living FAQ (found here) as a set of official rulings. We will be coming with an actual PDF with an FAQ and a small card Errata within the coming weeks.
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Jarad Bond
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I would like to meekly point out that the Errata isn't being tracked in the FAQ. I have not started a post to collect the Errata, but I could if it is something the community would like.
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Box of Delights
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Here is a list of errata: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1423602/card-errata-lis...

So glad about this one.... !
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Victor L
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irondeav wrote:
varoknight wrote:
Remove “or place it at the top of your deck” part from the card’s text box.

Add (new paragraph): Special: If this card is in your discard pile, move it to the top of your deck after you draw cards at the end of your Hero Turn.” If needed, delete the flavour text from the card to fit this in.


Yes, this is the official ruling on how the Utility Belt card will be modified in the upcoming card errata. The "If needed..." part will not appear on the card, for rather obvious reasons.


Two questions:

1. Is the Special action optional? If so, do you want to say "you may move it to the top of the deck"?

2. Why put it back on top of the deck after drawing cards? It would eliminate the infinite loop and be more similar in spirit to the original if it was just a regular "end of Hero turn" effect, which takes place *before* the cards are drawn. (I just played solo with Crow, and I found it really hard to keep enough cards in the deck. Just having that one extra card from Utility Belt would have made a big difference. I guess I could have rested an extra turn instead.)
 
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Jerry Tresman
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intheory wrote:
irondeav wrote:
varoknight wrote:
Remove “or place it at the top of your deck” part from the card’s text box.

Add (new paragraph): Special: If this card is in your discard pile, move it to the top of your deck after you draw cards at the end of your Hero Turn.” If needed, delete the flavour text from the card to fit this in.


Yes, this is the official ruling on how the Utility Belt card will be modified in the upcoming card errata. The "If needed..." part will not appear on the card, for rather obvious reasons.


Two questions:

1. Is the Special action optional? If so, do you want to say "you may move it to the top of the deck"?

2. Why put it back on top of the deck after drawing cards? It would eliminate the infinite loop and be more similar in spirit to the original if it was just a regular "end of Hero turn" effect, which takes place *before* the cards are drawn. (I just played solo with Crow, and I found it really hard to keep enough cards in the deck. Just having that one extra card from Utility Belt would have made a big difference. I guess I could have rested an extra turn instead.)


I think Błażej has abandoned responsibility for FAQ/errata to Fans and they don't all have time to keep it up to date.
 
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Mike Clarke
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Starman54 wrote:
I think Błażej has abandoned responsibility for FAQ/errata to Fans and they don't all have time to keep it up to date.


I think that's highly unfair. First the card changes are changes he's sanctioned and he just finished stating here he'll be coming out with a FAQ PDF in the coming weeks. Of course it will include information from the fan base here. This, is after all, the ultimate playtest. In the end we do what we do best, which is help each other out and that's no reflection on Blazej.
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David Landry
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mikecl wrote:
... This, is after all, the ultimate playtest. In the end we do what we do best, which is help each other out and that's no reflection on Blazej.


Mike - you are confirming my Kickstarter fears of late.

Are we (Kickstarter backers) seen as a bunch of suckers that will pay to "playtest" games for designers? Faced to wait for expansions for corrected cards or to pay a reasonable shipping cost for replacement cards.

While I really enjoy the game, this crowd-sourcing mentality seems to be all upside for designers...

Sorry for the rant. I'm glad I have my copy of Mistfall, but I would have preferred to wait an additional month for additional play-testing by the designer. Even software, as buggy as it tends to be these days, has a 0day patch.

d
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Mike Clarke
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cdndave wrote:
mikecl wrote:
... This, is after all, the ultimate playtest. In the end we do what we do best, which is help each other out and that's no reflection on Blazej.


Mike - you are confirming my Kickstarter fears of late.

Are we (Kickstarter backers) seen as a bunch of suckers that will pay to "playtest" games for designers? Faced to wait for expansions for corrected cards or to pay a reasonable shipping cost for replacement cards.

While I really enjoy the game, this crowd-sourcing mentality seems to be all upside for designers...

Sorry for the rant. I'm glad I have my copy of Mistfall, but I would have preferred to wait an additional month for additional play-testing by the designer. Even software, as buggy as it tends to be these days, has a 0day patch.

d


It so happens on that point I agree with you. I've commented many times on Kickstarter's negative effect on the hobby for all the reasons you've just outlined. This, in fact, was my first Kickstarter (not counting an expansion).

The publisher used to take all the risk which meant well researched and play tested games and components or else he lost money which helped ensure a quality product. With Kickstarter we take all the risk and the rush to publish (and fans clamour for it) is so high games have to be rushed out. Kickstarter has also pushed up the price of games too as people open their wallets for stretch goals and add ons.

A $100 game used to be a shockingly rare occurrence but not anymore. That said we knew the rules when we signed up and I think Blazej is doing his level best to make things right.

Beating him up at this point isn't gong to accomplish anything. That ship has already sailed. He's not doing anything different than anyone else in Kickstarter. NKSN is actually one of the better companies using this funding model, with timely and reliable deliveries, quality components and customer support.

And card errata is nothing new particularly for cardplay this complex.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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mikecl wrote:
Starman54 wrote:
I think Błażej has abandoned responsibility for FAQ/errata to Fans and they don't all have time to keep it up to date.


I think that's highly unfair. First the card changes are changes he's sanctioned and he just finished stating here he'll be coming out with a FAQ PDF in the coming weeks. Of course it will include information from the fan base here. This, is after all, the ultimate playtest. In the end we do what we do best, which is help each other out and that's no reflection on Blazej.


It was not a Criticism just a statement of Fact maybe I should have added for Now. However some companies do this without even recognising contributions or linking to the FAQ / Errata.

 
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