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Subject: Token flip = sale! rss

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Dex Quest
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Hats off to FF for moving game design forward with the token combat idea. It offers tons of flexibility and excitement. Shield your ears D&D/Ameritrash fans but dice-based numbered combat so last decade (although I do enjoy the super-craziness of a good d20 over d10 once in a while) and that's why Mage Knight and other card-driven games are just so darned enjoyable.

With this in mind, the video on FF's site doesn't help its cause as group playing the game look a tad clueless at times. The tile flipping demo at the table doesn't look good at all, as the girl hardly even shakes the token, just plonks it down. I actually think they'll need a large-ish jar to be shaken in, or cupped in two hands and then dropped in a bowl not a table; More of a token 'drop' than a flip and I can see it working brilliantly. I honestly think it will work a treat and there'll be masses of fun sh*t to do with mixing the tokens into a perfect fighting brew each time. Rock on December...

Let's face it, if you really don't want to move away from dice then just stick with RB 1 and 2 - they're still great games with the same dragon bashing underneath. What's new here is the gameplay, not the story, just jog on if you simply must have dice.

Some other reasons why I think this will be a must-have for any adventure fans:

1: Artwork - that board absolutely rocks. And because it is FF so do the cards and chits. I never did like the old board design - it was basic and miserable.

2: Solo simply will happen! Oodles of add-on packs with adventure cards to add into the 'standard deck' will follow, probably including many solo ideas (read co-op), too. So fear ye not solo adventurers, although the makers describe the game as a competitive adventure the guy at GenCon also let slip that co-op scenarios will come out - ie solo. Also, there's not reason the solo specialists on bgg will not create a good variant from even the base game - here's looking at you NinjaDorg. FF is a huge company that loves drip feeding content and there will be stacks to follow.

3: The new three card system: choice of adventure - combat, social or adventure, along with trading missions is even closer to your average (video) game of Oblivion, which can only be a good thing. I'm genuinely excited about the way this will enable me to carve out my own wee quest at my own pace. Another tick then as I just can't wait to take goods from a town and sell to some dudes at an outlying fortress for twice the price. Oops, bad movement dice, can't do it this turn...

4: At this early stage it looks like FF is pushing more of a good story thread for each quest, with story cards popping up at random to give twists to each tale; This takes the best bits from Andor and Defenders, but with even more adventure-y flexibility. The dragon is nearing... quick! Run for the citadel! - Tick!

5: They've retained the terrain movement - I liked this mechanic from the old Wallace games and it'll force your hand each turn about where and what you can do - just as the decision in Mage Knight each turn is 'do I have enough to move and fight or just move?' - Another tick.

6: I sold all my old runebound stuff last year at a whopper of a price so my bank account is ready and waiting to be hammered come Christmas Sorry folks, but I do take a perverse pleasure in seeing those unrealistic prices tumble when a new game edition comes out - it's almost a game in itself knowing when to hold on or sell. £200 (!!) for RB2 when you could have bought RB1 (which is just as good - read schkff's awesome review on the forums) for £10 a year or two back.

Roll on Christmas, I honestly can't wait for this one.

edit: just seen a Runebound second ed thrown onto bgg for £50 - give it a month and they'll be £25 a pop again.
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Mikhail Kruzhkov
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I can only say that I'm glad for you and for all the people who are fine with the token flip idea.
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Mikhail Kruzhkov
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willsargent wrote:
Solo simply will happen! Oodles of add-on packs with adventure cards to add into the 'standard deck' will follow, probably including many solo ideas (read co-op), too. So fear ye not solo adventurers, although the makers describe the game as a competitive adventure the guy at GenCon also let slip that co-op scenarios will come out - ie solo.

And I also would like to comment on this - I'm really doubtful that solo will happen in this case. I really like Middle-Earth Quest and I would love to play it solo, but solo just didn't happen there. Partly, due to a similar idea of a combat where an opponent is required to choose which card to play each round. Here it is very similar except that you know your opponent's hand and can try to figure out what he/she can do. So, I'm afraid, this combat system really makes it unsoloable. And slow too, since it requires quite a bit of calculating of your and your opponent's options.
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magnitt wrote:
willsargent wrote:
Solo simply will happen! Oodles of add-on packs with adventure cards to add into the 'standard deck' will follow, probably including many solo ideas (read co-op), too. So fear ye not solo adventurers, although the makers describe the game as a competitive adventure the guy at GenCon also let slip that co-op scenarios will come out - ie solo.

And I also would like to comment on this - I'm really doubtful that solo will happen in this case. I really like Middle-Earth Quest and I would love to play it solo, but solo just didn't happen there. Partly, due to a similar idea of a combat where an opponent is required to choose which card to play each round. Here it is very similar except that you know your opponent's hand and can try to figure out what he/she can do. So, I'm afraid, this combat system really makes it unsoloable. And slow too, since it requires quite a bit of calculating of your and your opponent's options.


But that isn't what is happening here. This isn't a "choose one token of many" kind of game, but rather a "flip all tokens available, irrespective" style of play. It is an optimization game, not a hidden selection game, and this distinction is what makes it quite different.

There doesn't seem to be any hidden information.


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Carey J
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Anarchosyn wrote:
magnitt wrote:
willsargent wrote:
Solo simply will happen! Oodles of add-on packs with adventure cards to add into the 'standard deck' will follow, probably including many solo ideas (read co-op), too. So fear ye not solo adventurers, although the makers describe the game as a competitive adventure the guy at GenCon also let slip that co-op scenarios will come out - ie solo.

And I also would like to comment on this - I'm really doubtful that solo will happen in this case. I really like Middle-Earth Quest and I would love to play it solo, but solo just didn't happen there. Partly, due to a similar idea of a combat where an opponent is required to choose which card to play each round. Here it is very similar except that you know your opponent's hand and can try to figure out what he/she can do. So, I'm afraid, this combat system really makes it unsoloable. And slow too, since it requires quite a bit of calculating of your and your opponent's options.


But that isn't what is happening here. This isn't a "choose one token of many" kind of game, but rather a "flip all tokens available, irrespective" style of play. It is an optimization game, not a hidden selection game, and this distinction is what makes it quite different.




Yeah, in a game where all information is known, you can deduce the "optimal" play. The question is whether it's complex enough to require computation by a machine in order to find it reliably. If this combat system is complex enough, it still might not be soloable.
 
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Mikkel B.
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I completely agree with all you reasons except number 6 - that seems very personal and comes across a little smug.

I wanted this game since Lonesome Gamers first video way back, and now it will be possible without taking a bank loan - I'm pleased.
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GilgaTex wrote:



Yeah, in a game where all information is known, you can deduce the "optimal" play. The question is whether it's complex enough to require computation by a machine in order to find it reliably. If this combat system is complex enough, it still might not be soloable.


From the videos I've watched, I have a pretty good idea of what this system will be. I've seen the range of (beginner?) tokens, and it really doesn't look that complex (though deeper than dice, which is why I'm in full support for the change).

Each token has two icons, and they're depicted on both sides (the larger one is the active symbol, where the smaller symbol on the side denotes what is on the opposite side). The range of effects seemed to be: attack, defend, [spend to] token flip, [spend to] boost another token, surge (activates a card effect) and maybe one more. It definitely gives the player more to think about during their turn than 2nd edition, but seems still in the domain of ease. In fact, FFG may have succeeded in finding a simple system that enhances not only the tactical depth of combat, but also future proofs the game for expansion content (much like they successfully did with Eldritch compared to Arkham).

I mean, in 2nd edition, once the dice were rolled, that was it. You then pretty much did the math, and applied effects. The fun was solely in the rolling, which honestly isn't all that fun after the 20th time. As I learned with Roll for the Galaxy (a game I thought never needed to exist, but has now eclipsed the original for me), never underestimate the power of giving players tinkering options (i.e. after the "dice" are rolled in 3e, you have things to consider and tinker with -- "do I spend this token to power up my defense, or do I flip it for its opposite side effect," etc).

My only question is whether the flipping of the tokens will be cumbersome, but I'm willing to at least give it a shot. I prefer innovation to following tired trends, and that implies a willingness to suspend knee jerk assessments and be open to change (and a willingness to suffer a misstep on the road to progress, if that is ultimately what this happens to be).

Interestingly enough, I generally dislike card combat systems in games (e.g. Warrior Knights, Dungeon Quest: Revised Edition, Fury of Dracula), but though this is similar, it not only gives the player something to consider, but lacks the secret selection mechanic that I feel brings most of these systems down in my book.

p.s. I intend to use Roll for the Galaxy cups as well (unless they're larger than I hope).
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Jeremy Gutjahr
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Sometimes more choice is scary for all our wives out there who actually could play the second edition comfortably. When my wife tried mage knight it was WAY too heavy in terms of all the choices you have. We'll see about this one.
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Dex Quest
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GilgaTex wrote:
Yeah, in a game where all information is known, you can deduce the "optimal" play. The question is whether it's complex enough to require computation by a machine in order to find it reliably. If this combat system is complex enough, it still might not be soloable.


If some genius can come up with a cool solo variant for the classic auction game For Sale then I can't see a problem randomising and then optimising an attack for a baddie from four coin icons. Come on guys, we can manage this...
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I'm putting this on my "very interested" list.

I purchased Forbidden Stars, and my group likes the hybrid dice/cards combat system. It forces you to build your deck to help sway the battle in your favor, but, of course, so is everyone else...so far, so good.

So, my point is that it appears FFG is innovating on combat/interaction systems, which is a good thing, IMO. I like variety and am pleasantly surprised at how FS has panned out for my group. The token flip system looks intriguing to me and could be a fun way to incorporate luck/chaos along with your own efforts to manage that uncertainty.

Looks good to me. I'll be following closely.
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Samuel Hinz
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It would be possible to design a flow chart for enemy combat it needed.

It would certainly be possible to program some dumb automation via web/app for enemy combat. Though people are often against such a thing.
 
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Howard Massey
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Whaaa.. this..
Not a knee-jerked run to the torch & pitchfork closet...
Not putting the tar & feathers ' on the boil '


A reasoned _ thought-out post.
Near Pollyannaish in tone they may say.

I suggest you go the early Xcom & Forbidden Stars Threads and see how to
properly go into ' Chicken Little '/ sky is falling mode when a new game, game mechanic is debuted, Sir
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The consensus so far is people who have actually demoed it tend to be putting it in the "it's shit" camp, while those who haven't are having a toss over it because "it's new".

"Shield your ears D&D/Ameritrash fans but dice-based numbered combat so last decade" - after such a stupid statement why would anyone take anything else the OP made up seriously? "Solo simply will happen!" because you know, because.

And then just to make this thread a total annoyance we get the cost bullshit. Because God knows I didn't read enough of that shit on the Fury of Dracula forums. I had no idea what either game went for prior to the new editions and nor did I give a fuck because I have no need to sell either game because I have a healthy bank account due to having a Job and being responsible. I hope 2nd edition drops in price so those who want in can get it now that there is no possible chance of a reprint and 3rd edition is a totally different game. That said anyone who sells 2nd for 3rd is a chump in my eyes.

Can't wait until the 3rd edition gets a games listing so the cult of the new can waddle on over there and the Runebound boards go back to normal.
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Mr Skeletor wrote:

Can't wait until the 3rd edition gets a games listing so the cult of the new can waddle on over there and the Runebound boards go back to normal.

Basically go back to just speculating about a 3rd Edition every few months laugh
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Mr Skeletor wrote:

Can't wait until the 3rd edition gets a games listing so the cult of the new can waddle on over there and the Runebound boards go back to normal.


It's already there: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/181530/runebound-third-e...

But no one has waddled yet
 
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
The consensus so far is people who have actually demoed it tend to be putting it in the "it's shit" camp, while those who haven't are having a toss over it because "it's new".


I haven't seen this consensus. I've seen some say it was shit, and I've seen other say it was cool, and yet others that were neutral.

I don't doubt you, I guess, but my point is people are saying positive things too. I'm not sure anybody got to experience a full game (and certainly didn't know the rules 100% even if they did).

It isn't like 2e died before its prime -- there is a wealth of expansion content out there, perhaps more than *literally* any other individual board game. What is there to complain about? Just keep playing 2e.. 3e will need years to catch up in the content department.
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Montag451 wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:

Can't wait until the 3rd edition gets a games listing so the cult of the new can waddle on over there and the Runebound boards go back to normal.

Basically go back to just speculating about a 3rd Edition every few months laugh


Yeah, those were good times.
Maybe we can hope that 4th edition is, you know, actually Runebound this time?
 
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Montag451 wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:

Can't wait until the 3rd edition gets a games listing so the cult of the new can waddle on over there and the Runebound boards go back to normal.

Basically go back to just speculating about a 3rd Edition every few months laugh


Yeah, those were good times.
Maybe we can hope that 4th edition is, you know, actually Runebound this time?


I will miss the newbies who occasionaly post that combat is so hard, that after a few hours they are finally able to take on yellows...

(Try rolling the other d10...)
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I own each and every single Expansion for RB2 and i love it - some where not that easy to get because i got on the train a little late.

I´m curious about the 3rd Edition, the new board looks awesome, can´t say anything about the token flip-mechanic because i don´t know that system from other games.

I´m pretty sure that i will buy at least the 3rd-Edition Basegame and then we´ll see. At the moment i can´t imagine to sell all m precious RB2 Stuff, even that i run pretty low on storage space cool

Also i own everything from Descent 1st Ed. and now from Descent 2nd Edition. Also everything from Arkham Horror, now from Eldritch... Soon i´ll need an extra appartement for FFG-Games only
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TylerDax wrote:

I´m curious about the 3rd Edition, the new board looks awesome, can´t say anything about the token flip-mechanic because i don´t know that system from other games.


I haven't owned Runebound in ages. I went back and rewatched a play through of it (more as a lark, I still remembered the rules) and was SHOCKED at how the board looks, now that I've been looking at the 3e board so much.

It hasn't been said often enough: man, does 3Es board look gorgeous.
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Yeah, that board is a zinger alright. You know what, I'd happily take cardboard standees like RB1 over the minis, too, as I never paint them and they look crap unpainted. This would annoy the unwashed, dice-rolling scrotums who only ever play Talisman and Arkham bleating all over here, too, which can only be a great thing.
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willsargent wrote:
Hats off to FF for moving game design forward with the token combat idea. It offers tons of flexibility and excitement. Shield your ears D&D/Ameritrash fans but dice-based numbered combat so last decade (although I do enjoy the super-craziness of a good d20 over d10 once in a while) and that's why Mage Knight and other card-driven games are just so darned enjoyable.


I completely disagree with you.

I love all kinds of different randomizers, Cards, Dice, Tokens - they all have their place and they all do it with a different flavour and feel.

Runebound is already a game that has WAY too much downtime between turns, from everything I have seen this token combat system just adds to the downtime. If that is true, that's a very bad design decision and is going to marginalize this game quickly.

Mage Knight? The cards in my opinion ruin that game and take away meaningful decisions. What I want to do is almost irrelevant, because the cards I draw dictate my actions. Mage Knight is just a spreadsheet with heroes and dragons pictures scattered all over. Blech.

Peace

 
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willsargent wrote:
from everything I have seen this token combat system just adds to the downtime.


I don't see how that is true at all. By adding other players into the mix for combat, it only decreases downtime, since you're more engaged.
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GilgaTex wrote:
willsargent wrote:
from everything I have seen this token combat system just adds to the downtime.


I don't see how that is true at all. By adding other players into the mix for combat, it only decreases downtime, since you're more engaged.


If it is a 4 player game only two players are involved. If this combat takes longer it increase downtime for those othet two players.
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whiskemuscles wrote:
GilgaTex wrote:
willsargent wrote:
from everything I have seen this token combat system just adds to the downtime.


I don't see how that is true at all. By adding other players into the mix for combat, it only decreases downtime, since you're more engaged.


If it is a 4 player game only two players are involved. If this combat takes longer it increase downtime for those othet two players.


I hear you, and you're not wrong. However, I found in 2e half of the downtime disengagement (phone surfing, etc) came from not really being able to follow the mid-late game complexities of the dice combat. All the modifiers from gear and creatures, plus reading the dice from across the table -- granted, some just never would have cared, but others sincerely wanted to pay attention yet couldn't.

At the very least, the token system seems more interesting to watch unfold. After all, it is a bit of a back and forth, and maybe unexpected events might unfold. I'm not promising it is the perfect cure to disengagement, but it might be a step in the right direction.
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