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Fief: France 1429» Forums » Rules

Subject: Joint sieges rss

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Kevin Walsh
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Per the English rulebook, two players can cooperate to besiege a Fortified City, and place a siege engine each. That's fine.

Now, suppose the turn order is player A, followed by player B, followed by player C. Players B and C have moved to player A's Fortified City, where player A's bishop is sitting with a huge army.

In the Battle phase, player A, passes. If player B passes on attacking and places a Siege Engine, can player C attack, invite player B to join the attack, and thereby benefit from player B's siege engine?

EDIT: have edited to clarify situation.
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Timo Prager
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think you cannot...cause you have to go out of the fortress to attack...and therefore there is no Chance of getting this benefit
 
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Kevin Duke
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I don't think you understand the question.
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Andrea Bampi
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Amaranth wrote:
Per the English rulebook, two players can cooperate to besiege a Fortified City, and place a siege engine each. That's fine.

Now, suppose the turn order is player A, followed by player B, followed by player C. Players B and C have moved to player A's Fortified City, where player A's bishop is sitting with a huge army.

In the Battle phase, player A, passes. If player B passes on attacking and places a Siege Engine, can player C attack, invite player B to join the attack, and thereby benefit from player B's siege engine?

EDIT: have edited to clarify situation.


Tricky situation cool
I didn't find anything in the rulebook and/or FAQs against this interpretation. Still, I think it doesn't make much sense, thematically. If player A passes, he should be forced to wait until his next round to actively participate in the Siege. He should be free to switch side in the same round, however. My 2 cents.
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Kevin Walsh
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Ultimately we decided that thematically, it takes time to build your siege engines, and that the "siege subphase" takes place after all battles are resolved. But now that I'm looking at the rulebook again, it looks like we were wrong.
 
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Nick Clinite
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I'll probably have my own question about this soon, but there seems to be a big element to the game regarding turn order in the battle phase. Gonna need some more time to read the rules over and over again before being confident in my question, though.
 
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Luke
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The fact is that, if B passes and adds a Siege engine, his battles are done. He cannot join C's attack cause he has already resolved his battles, so C can't invite B nor take advantage of B's Siege Engines.


Rulebook page 14 wrote:

After resolving his battles, a Player that
still has Troops in a Village with an
opponent occupied Stronghold or
Fortified City may initiate a Siege. He
declares a Siege and adds a 1 Battle Die
Siege Engine counter to his besieging
troops.


Italic mine; this means that B can't join C on the current Battle phase but needs to wait until the next turn's Battle phase. No bug in the rules this time
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Andrea Bampi
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Soul_Guile wrote:
The fact is that, if B passes and adds a Siege engine, his battles are done. He cannot join C's attack cause he has already resolved his battles, so C can't invite B nor take advantage of B's Siege Engines.

Rulebook page 14 wrote:

After resolving his battles, a Player that
still has Troops in a Village with an
opponent occupied Stronghold or
Fortified City may initiate a Siege. He
declares a Siege and adds a 1 Battle Die
Siege Engine counter to his besieging
troops.


Italic mine; this means that B can't join C on the current Battle phase but needs to wait until the next turn's Battle phase. No bug in the rules this time


I'm not sure about your interpretation. This paragraph just states that a player has to resolve all HIS battles before declaring one or more Sieges; but it doesn't say anything about whether he's entitled to participate in other battles initiated by other players as an ally. And I'm quite sure he can. There're plenty of examples of similar joint armies/alliances in the forums. I think that the turn order isn't relevant in terms of joint armies. This is what I deduced from tons of posts I've read here...
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I AM Not A Number
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Soul_Guile wrote:
The fact is that, if B passes and adds a Siege engine, his battles are done. He cannot join C's attack cause he has already resolved his battles, so C can't invite B nor take advantage of B's Siege Engines.


Rulebook page 14 wrote:

After resolving his battles, a Player that
still has Troops in a Village with an
opponent occupied Stronghold or
Fortified City may initiate a Siege. He
declares a Siege and adds a 1 Battle Die
Siege Engine counter to his besieging
troops.


Italic mine; this means that B can't join C on the current Battle phase but needs to wait until the next turn's Battle phase. No bug in the rules this time

The "his" is not present in the french rule. It only says "After resolving all the battles... "
Is it all HIS battles or all the battles IN THE GAME ?
The examples seem to indicate that the Siege Engine is placed at the end of the player's turn. But it is not so clear.
An official answer would be nice.
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Luke
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I see your point. I believe that turn order should be relevant to alliances. Otherwise it would compromise other aspects of the combats. The siege engines used in the same round as reported here is an example.
 
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Andrea Bampi
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Soul_Guile wrote:
I see your point. I believe that turn order should be relevant to alliances. Otherwise it would compromise other aspects of the combats. The siege engines used in the same round as reported here is an example.


I would have agreed with you some months ago, but I realized that imposing such relevancy would change the game deeply, and I don't want to formalize new rules (never intended by the authors, it seems) for a game already full of rules and exceptions. I prefer the "total freedom" approach, and it seems that most people do the same.
I agree with you about the siege "bug"; but, as in many other special cases, I think we'll apply simple common sense to solve the issue. Nevertheless, it seems to be a not-so-uncommon case, and it definitely deserves a clarification.
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neko flying
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iamnan wrote:

Is it all HIS battles or all the battles IN THE GAME ?
The examples seem to indicate that the Siege Engine is placed at the end of the player's turn. But it is not so clear.
An official answer would be nice.


No need for an official answer, this is answered implicitly in Rule 6.4 in the 1.12 version of the English rules:

Quote:
Rulebook, page 14

If allies each have Troops and are besieging a Stronghold/
Fortified Village together, they may each place a 1 Battle
Die Siege Engine counter, for a total 2 Battle Dice bonus (so
alliances are effective during Sieges).


So this implies that an ally's Battle Die Siege Engines CAN be used in a siege. It still isn't clear whether Player B can:
1) pass,
2) place a Siege Engine, and
3) join the battle as an ally, using the Siege Engine
all in the same round, but I see nothing in the rules that forbids this, so my impression is that this is allowed.

So my answer to OP's question:

Quote:
If player B passes on attacking and places a Siege Engine, can player C attack, invite player B to join the attack, and thereby benefit from player B's siege engine?


is yes, he can.
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Luke
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But NOT benefit of B's engine in the same round, which I believe was the original question.

Concerning the official ruling, we need an official answer to understand if a player joining the attack of another player that invites him, is considered as already resolving his attack on that location. Or if he can attack again when it is his turn.
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I AM Not A Number
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Concerning the Siege Engines, my understanding is that a player can place a Siege Engine at the end of his combat phase, but it won't be usable by an ally this turn (time to build it).

Second point concerning the phase order at the combat phase :
My understanding is that if players A,B,C are present on the same village and turn order is A->B->C, if C joined A to attacked B, and if C still has troops, he can declare an attack at his own combat phase.
And the same thing the other way round : at C's combat phase, A's remaining troops can join C even if A had already declared a combat at his combat phase.
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Andrea Bampi
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iamnan wrote:
Concerning the Siege Engines, my understanding is that a player can place a Siege Engine at the end of his combat phase, but it won't be usable by an ally this turn (time to build it).

Second point concerning the phase order at the combat phase :
My understanding is that if players A,B,C are present on the same village and turn order is A->B->C, if C joined A to attacked B, and if C still has troops, he can declare an attack at his own combat phase.
And the same thing the other way round : at C's combat phase, A's remaining troops can join C even if A had already declared a combat at his combat phase.


I agree with you, but since nothing specifically prohibits to use siege engines in the same round they are placed (meaning, as an ally), I understand people pretending to do so. I don't think the designers intended to allow this, but it's a personal opinion
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Nick Clinite
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RickNash wrote:
I agree with you, but since nothing specifically prohibits to use siege engines in the same round they are placed (meaning, as an ally), I understand people pretending to do so. I don't think the designers intended to allow this, but it's a personal opinion


If it isn't their intention, then they could easily fix it by changing the line "After resolving his battles," to "After resolving all battles,".
 
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neko flying
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islan wrote:
If it isn't their intention, then they could easily fix it by changing the line "After resolving his battles," to "After resolving all battles,".


They could, but the English rulebook is very crappy and they don't seem to care much about it. It is basically a translation of the French one with a few intentional alterations (meant to improve the game, which is ok) and a bunch of random omissions and sloppy wordings.
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Jens Bretschneider
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Hi together,

here are the results from the German Jury

The German rulebook also quotes: "After ALL battles are resolved..."

Therefore with German rules siege engines do not take part in the named example or B may join but he has no siege engine at this time.

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Christoph Wolf
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JBSchneider wrote:

Hi together,

here are the results from the German Jury

The German rulebook also quotes: "After ALL battles are resolved..."

Therefore with German rules siege engines do not take part in the named example or B may join but he has no siege engine at this time.



Interesting, because the german rules should be a direct translation of the english rules. I wonder who added the "all".
 
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I AM Not A Number
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Anyway, I think it was the intention of the author that siege engines built this turn cannot be used yet. And it is thematically coherent.
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Mirko Bruner
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If you deploy a siege engine you must wait the next turn to benefits its effects against a stronghold or a fortified city. Therefore theoretically player C could not ask you to join the battle while your engines are still not ready. Player C attacks alone.
 
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