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Subject: Using Magic Missile and Chain Lightning with Gnarled Staff to Target at Two Enemies rss

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John Choong
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Have a 2 player game this evening and this question came up. For Celenthia, if she used Gnarled Staff to resolve the Regular Action of Magic and Chain Lighting, will the attack now be a BOTH Lightning and Flame attack?

If the above answer is yes, will it be possible for Celenthia player to immediately put 1 Wound token on two Wild Icehound she target when playing Magic Missile and Chain Lightning since Wild Icehound is vulnerable to Flame?
 
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Michael Weber
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I have no idea how you can play Magic Missile AND Chain lightning at the same time using the gnarled staff.

If the gnarled staff is used as a regular action this is the ONE regular action you are allowed per turn. Now, the gnarled staff's regular action allows you to use another card's regular action - i.e. you can either play Magic Missile OR Chain Lightning, but not both.

You sound like you are misinterpreting the Gnarled staff or am I misunderstanding you in some way?
 
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John Choong
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Mixo wrote:
I have no idea how you can play Magic Missile AND Chain lightning at the same time using the gnarled staff.

If the gnarled staff is used as a regular action this is the ONE regular action you are allowed per turn. Now, the gnarled staff's regular action allows you to use another card's regular action - i.e. you can either play Magic Missile OR Chain Lightning, but not both.

You sound like you are misinterpreting the Gnarled staff or am I misunderstanding you in some way?


Correct me if I am wrong here. The text of Gnarled Staff states, "Hero Area Regular Action - Resolve 1 Action of an Arcane card in your Hand or Hero Area."

As I understand, when it states 1 Action without specifying whether it is Fast Action or Regular Action, you can have the option using Gnarled Staff to trigger the effect of any of them. Therefore, your 1 Regular Action is coming from Gnarled Staff and you ignore the word "Regular" from Chain Lightning and Magic Missile.

 
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brighknight_216 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong here. The text of Gnarled Staff states, "Hero Area Regular Action - Resolve 1 Action of an Arcane card in your Hand or Hero Area."

As I understand, when it states 1 Action without specifying whether it is Fast Action or Regular Action, you can have the option using Gnarled Staff to trigger the effect of any of them. Therefore, your 1 Regular Action is coming from Gnarled Staff and you ignore the word "Regular" from Chain Lightning and Magic Missile.


Are you reading "an Arcane card" as 'all Arcane cards'? I read it as 'one Arcane card'.

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John Choong
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Ibbo wrote:
brighknight_216 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong here. The text of Gnarled Staff states, "Hero Area Regular Action - Resolve 1 Action of an Arcane card in your Hand or Hero Area."

As I understand, when it states 1 Action without specifying whether it is Fast Action or Regular Action, you can have the option using Gnarled Staff to trigger the effect of any of them. Therefore, your 1 Regular Action is coming from Gnarled Staff and you ignore the word "Regular" from Chain Lightning and Magic Missile.


Are you reading "an Arcane card" as 'all Arcane cards'? I read it as 'one Arcane card'.



My interpretation is that when you play Gnarled Staff, you can only activate 1 Arcane card. Because of the the Regular Action of the Gnarled Staff, you have to place the card on top of the deck.

However, if my understanding is correct, Gnarled Staff can interact with any card with the Arcane Keyword.
 
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Michael Weber
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brighknight_216 wrote:

My interpretation is that when you play Gnarled Staff, you can only activate 1 Arcane card. Because of the the Regular Action of the Gnarled Staff, you have to place the card on top of the deck.

However, if my understanding is correct, Gnarled Staff can interact with any card with the Arcane Keyword.


You are correct, you can only activate ONE arcane card, so I still do not get how you could possibly funnel Magic Missile AND Chaining Lightning into ONE attack?!

Maybe you are incorrectly adding up your attacks? You have to treat each action separately, so if you use your gnarled staff with Magic Missile it is ONE attack (from which you shield have to deduct the shield value of the enemy) and the play of the Chain Lightning is a new, separate attack from which you have to subtract the shield value of the enemy again.
 
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John Choong
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Mixo wrote:
brighknight_216 wrote:

My interpretation is that when you play Gnarled Staff, you can only activate 1 Arcane card. Because of the the Regular Action of the Gnarled Staff, you have to place the card on top of the deck.

However, if my understanding is correct, Gnarled Staff can interact with any card with the Arcane Keyword.


You are correct, you can only activate ONE arcane card, so I still do not get how you could possibly funnel Magic Missile AND Chaining Lightning into ONE attack?!

Maybe you are incorrectly adding up your attacks? You have to treat each action separately, so if you use your gnarled staff with Magic Missile it is ONE attack (from which you shield have to deduct the shield value of the enemy) and the play of the Chain Lightning is a new, separate attack from which you have to subtract the shield value of the enemy again.


My apology for my poor English grammar. Actually I am referring Gnarled Staff being able to activate Magic Missile (which has a Lightning keyword) and Chain Lightning (which also has a Lightning keyword). I don't mean that Gnarled Staff can be used to activate both of them at the same time in one turn.

Nevertheless, the issue I am trying to get is whether Gnarled Staff which has a Flame keyword when played with, for example, Magic Missile will give the attack both Flame and Lightning characteristics. This is because when my friend and I were facing the Wild Icehound, it only has vulnerability towards Flame but not Lightning. So if I only play Magic Missile, I will not be able to place 1 Wound token on the Wild Icehound immediately.

However, if Gnarled Staff can "lend" its Flame to the firing of the Magic Missile, them the Wild Icehouse should immediately take 1 Wound token upon attack. Is this the correct play?
 
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Michael Weber
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brighknight_216 wrote:

However, if Gnarled Staff can "lend" its Flame to the firing of the Magic Missile, them the Wild Icehouse should immediately take 1 Wound token upon attack. Is this the correct play?


I would say no, as the gnarled stuff allows you to resolve a regular action of one arcane card. Now, you are using THIS card as an attack with all the benefits THIS card offers (like lightning) and you are NOT using the gnarled staff in this attack, so the gnarled staff cannot "lend" its flame to the lightning card.


Yes it is, I stand corrected, see designer's answer below - thanks for the awesome support!
 
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Does Keyword Inheritance not work here?

Rulebook wrote:
Keyword Inheritance (Rulebook, p.14)
A Hero card effect modified by any other effects automatically inherits all
keywords of any cards that modified it. Simply put, if a Blunt card Action
effect is modified by a Flame card effect, the modified card inherits the
Flame keyword for the duration of the Action resolution. As no keywords
may ever appear more than once on any card, inheriting a keyword already
present on the target card has no effect.


Or does the Gnarled Staff just activate, not modify, the Magic Missile?
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B. G. Kubacki
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All keywords from all the cards used in one effect are "used" on its target. See rules, page 14, Keyword Inheritance.
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Ibbo wrote:
Does Keyword Inheritance not work here?

Rulebook wrote:
Keyword Inheritance (Rulebook, p.14)
A Hero card effect modified by any other effects automatically inherits all
keywords of any cards that modified it. Simply put, if a Blunt card Action
effect is modified by a Flame card effect, the modified card inherits the
Flame keyword for the duration of the Action resolution. As no keywords
may ever appear more than once on any card, inheriting a keyword already
present on the target card has no effect.


Or does the Gnarled Staff just activate, not modify, the Magic Missile?


Good point, I'd say that you do NOT modify, but simply resolve the second card, hence no inheritance, but I absolutely see your point here and you might well be right.

Guess we will have to wait and see what the designer says - should not take too long till we get an answer from him, as he is quite active. Anyways this question should be added to the FAQs.
He was even faster than this answer - thanks!
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Jerry Tresman
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brighknight_216 wrote:
Mixo wrote:
brighknight_216 wrote:

My interpretation is that when you play Gnarled Staff, you can only activate 1 Arcane card. Because of the the Regular Action of the Gnarled Staff, you have to place the card on top of the deck.

However, if my understanding is correct, Gnarled Staff can interact with any card with the Arcane Keyword.


You are correct, you can only activate ONE arcane card, so I still do not get how you could possibly funnel Magic Missile AND Chaining Lightning into ONE attack?!

Maybe you are incorrectly adding up your attacks? You have to treat each action separately, so if you use your gnarled staff with Magic Missile it is ONE attack (from which you shield have to deduct the shield value of the enemy) and the play of the Chain Lightning is a new, separate attack from which you have to subtract the shield value of the enemy again.


My apology for my poor English grammar. Actually I am referring Gnarled Staff being able to activate Magic Missile (which has a Lightning keyword) and Chain Lightning (which also has a Lightning keyword). I don't mean that Gnarled Staff can be used to activate both of them at the same time in one turn.

Nevertheless, the issue I am trying to get is whether Gnarled Staff which has a Flame keyword when played with, for example, Magic Missile will give the attack both Flame and Lightning characteristics. This is because when my friend and I were facing the Wild Icehound, it only has vulnerability towards Flame but not Lightning. So if I only play Magic Missile, I will not be able to place 1 Wound token on the Wild Icehound immediately.

However, if Gnarled Staff can "lend" its Flame to the firing of the Magic Missile, them the Wild Icehouse should immediately take 1 Wound token upon attack. Is this the correct play?


Błażej has posted and the rules (see below ) confirm that when you play cards fro their actions they add all keywords ,they do not double up , both cards inherit each others keywords for the duration of an action.

Rules Page 14 wrote:

Keyword Inheritance
A Hero card effect modified by any other effects automatically inherits all keywords of any cards that modified it. Simply put, if a Blunt card Action effect is modified by a Flame card effect, the modified card inherits the Flame keyword for the duration of the Action resolution. As no keywords may ever appear more than once on any card, inheriting a keyword already present on the target card has no effect.


The attack will be both a Flame and Lightening and all the other keywords.
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B. G. Kubacki
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Mixo wrote:
Good point, I'd say that you do NOT modify, but simply resolve the second card, hence no inheritance, but I absolutely see your point here and you might well be right.


The Gnarled Staff actually uses the Embedded Actions rules found on page 13 of the Rules of Play, so I understand your doubts. However, the specific wording of the Gnarled Staff Regular Action is: "If the Action requires or allows for discarding Arcane cards, treat it as if 1 Arcane card was already discarded." This is a modification of the effect, as you physically do not have to discard anything.

Also, as a general rule, whenever Hero cards influence their own damage, range, targets, etc., they do modify each other. The only exception here is any effect that immediately precedes or follows another effect (like modifications to Enemy defence, or any effect starting with: "After...").
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Jerry Tresman
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irondeav wrote:
Mixo wrote:
Good point, I'd say that you do NOT modify, but simply resolve the second card, hence no inheritance, but I absolutely see your point here and you might well be right.


The Gnarled Staff actually uses the Embedded Actions rules found on page 13 of the Rules of Play, so I understand your doubts. However, the specific wording of the Gnarled Staff Regular Action is: "If the Action requires or allows for discarding Arcane cards, treat it as if 1 Arcane card was already discarded." This is a modification of the effect, as you physically do not have to discard anything.

Also, as a general rule, whenever Hero cards influence their own damage, range, targets, etc., they do modify each other. The only exception here is any effect that immediately precedes or follows another effect (like modifications to Enemy defence, or any effect starting with: "After...").


Please clarify - Embedded Actions do Inherit the keyword of "calling" actions as well as any Reflex actions that are used to modify them. In this sense they are the same as Reflex actions as far as keyword Inheritance.

 
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Starman54 wrote:
Please clarify - Embedded Actions do Inherit the keyword of "calling" actions as well as any Reflex actions that are used to modify them. In this sense they are the same as Reflex actions as far as keyword Inheritance.


Yes they do, but this reciprocity does not really matter, as you can easily pinpoint the card that will be the source of the primary effect (in this case: Magic Missle, the card with the Action being actually resolved), and any Actions (or more specifically: Reflexes) and Special Abilities that modify the main effect's properties (by adding damage, Range, etc.).
 
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So every time you cast a Spell via a staff's Regular Action, it's also a Blunt attack? Talk about skeleton killer (Staff+Fire Bolt against Bonesorrow enemies' Blunt and Flame weaknesses, for instance). I'm starting to like the caster heroes now.
 
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HitmanN wrote:
So every time you cast a Spell via a staff's Regular Action, it's also a Blunt attack? Talk about skeleton killer (Staff+Fire Bolt against Bonesorrow enemies' Blunt and Flame weaknesses, for instance). I'm starting to like the caster heroes now.


Possibly not the place to ask this, but say an enemy has two weaknesses like in this example. Say their armor is 2 and I do two damage.That's not enough to get through the armor. Would the weakness generate two wounds? One wound? No wounds because I didn't actually damage the enemy?
 
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One wound for each weakness. Also, wounds from weaknesses are separate from the attack damage, and ignore armor, basically. You always apply them.
 
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Apex_phase wrote:
Possibly not the place to ask this, but say an enemy has two weaknesses like in this example. Say their armor is 2 and I do two damage.That's not enough to get through the armor. Would the weakness generate two wounds? One wound? No wounds because I didn't actually damage the enemy?

The designer stated somewhere on BGG threads here that when an attack is made, you can modify the attack with weaknesses or anything else, even if it doesn't get through the armor. When all bonuses and weaknesses are factored in, you may still end up damaging the enemy even if the armor cancels out all of the base attack.

Each weakness vulnerability trait can cause at most one wound, if at least one of the matching keyword is in the attack. So, for two different weaknesses vulnerabilities, you can get two extra damage if you match both, even if you have two of each keyword in your attack. Also, the exact same weakness trait cannot be added again, so you can't make an enemy doubly weak to anything.

Edit (strikethroughs and following):
My interpretation was initially wrong here, as was using the term "weakness". The enemy just flat-out takes one wound for each matching keyword/vulnerability combo (once per distinct keyword), even if you don't "hit" the enemy due to high defenses.

Here is the post I was thinking of: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/19897154#19897154
 
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Under what circumstances do weakness tokens cause wounds and where is this in the rule book? Under Weakness it only says you can remove weakness tokens to cancel an enemy's special ability.
 
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mikecl wrote:
Under what circumstances do weakness tokens cause wounds and where is this in the rule book? Under Weakness it only says you can remove weakness tokens to cancel an enemy's special ability.

I had assumed he was talking about the keywords, not the tokens. What is the correct terminology? Vulnerability?
 
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logris wrote:
mikecl wrote:
Under what circumstances do weakness tokens cause wounds and where is this in the rule book? Under Weakness it only says you can remove weakness tokens to cancel an enemy's special ability.

I had assumed he was talking about the keywords, not the tokens. What is the correct terminology? Vulnerability?



I don't know. It's just news to me that Weakness tokens cause damage under any circumstances. Perhaps It's some card-based effect? What did you mean when you talked about Weakness causing wounds with matching keywords?
 
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mikecl wrote:
logris wrote:
mikecl wrote:
Under what circumstances do weakness tokens cause wounds and where is this in the rule book? Under Weakness it only says you can remove weakness tokens to cancel an enemy's special ability.

I had assumed he was talking about the keywords, not the tokens. What is the correct terminology? Vulnerability?


I don't know. It's just news to me that Weakness tokens cause damage under any circumstances. Perhaps It's some card-based effect? What did you mean when you talked about Weakness causing wounds with matching keywords?

I think the "weakness" term is confusing the issue. I'm not talking about a Weakness token. The poster who I was replying to used the term "weakness" and they meant "vulnerability".

I apologize for not being clear. If the enemy (as in the original example) has the Vulnerable (Flame) keyword and you are using a Flame attack, your attack will cause an additional wound, even if your attack don't get through their defense.

For example: I attack for 1 damage, the enemy has 1 defense, but my attack has the Flame keyword, and the enemy has Vulnerable (Flame) keyword, it will take a wound.

Also, if I attack for 1 damage, the enemy has 2 defense. The Flame keyword and vulnerability... the enemy still takes a wound.
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Ah geez. No wonder I was confused. It has nothing to do with weakness. Got it.
 
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So, if I use the regular action of the Gnarled Staff, I still have to discard the hand card it affects, correct?
 
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