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Legendary: Secret Wars – Volume 1» Forums » Rules

Subject: Playable Mastermind and Scheme Setup rss

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Joe McNulty
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There are two distinct rules for setting up games with a playable mastermind. The first is pretty straightforward - "Use a number of Heroes, Villains, Henchmen, and Bystanders based on the number of “Heroic players,” not the Mastermind Player." Got it, simple!

The second, "However, the Scheme does count the Mastermind Player as a “player”, including its “Setup,” “Special Rules,” & “Evil Wins” rules.", gets a bit fuzzy in places. In searching there's about 8 (+/- 2 as I may not have written all of them down on my notecard) schemes that have setup criteria based on number of players. For most it's fairly straight forward. i.e. Legacy Virus: # of Wounds = Players * 6, so this one would be total players (including mastermind) to get the total.

There are a few, however, that have criteria specifically aimed at modifications for solo play:
- Save Humanity has a setup that if solo bystanders are to be 12, otherwise it's 24. With a playable mastermind would I put 12 or 24 into the hero deck?
- Crush them with My Bare Hands says if there's one player to add an extra Villain Group. With a playable mastermind would I also add this, or not?

It's really a question of which rule is supposed to take priority - does the rule for adding the mastermind for scheme setup trump the previous rule of not counting the mastermind for determining heroes, villains, etc?
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Bert McCloud
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redvulture wrote:
There are two distinct rules for setting up games with a playable mastermind. The first is pretty straightforward - "Use a number of Heroes, Villains, Henchmen, and Bystanders based on the number of “Heroic players,” not the Mastermind Player." Got it, simple!

The second, "However, the Scheme does count the Mastermind Player as a “player”, including its “Setup,” “Special Rules,” & “Evil Wins” rules.", gets a bit fuzzy in places. In searching there's about 8 (+/- 2 as I may not have written all of them down on my notecard) schemes that have setup criteria based on number of players. For most it's fairly straight forward. i.e. Legacy Virus: # of Wounds = Players * 6, so this one would be total players (including mastermind) to get the total.

There are a few, however, that have criteria specifically aimed at modifications for solo play:
- Save Humanity has a setup that if solo bystanders are to be 12, otherwise it's 24. With a playable mastermind would I put 12 or 24 into the hero deck?
- Crush them with My Bare Hands says if there's one player to add an extra Villain Group. With a playable mastermind would I also add this, or not?

It's really a question of which rule is supposed to take priority - does the rule for adding the mastermind for scheme setup trump the previous rule of not counting the mastermind for determining heroes, villains, etc?


In both of those cases I would set up as though there were 1 player.

My reasoning for this is that in both cases it's about the pacing and content of the hero deck, so if you're going to use a single player hero deck then the scheme adjustments would also apply to that single player relevant hero deck.

That's not exactly official but that's what makes sense to me.
 
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John Ward
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BertMcCloud wrote:
redvulture wrote:
There are two distinct rules for setting up games with a playable mastermind. The first is pretty straightforward - "Use a number of Heroes, Villains, Henchmen, and Bystanders based on the number of “Heroic players,” not the Mastermind Player." Got it, simple!

The second, "However, the Scheme does count the Mastermind Player as a “player”, including its “Setup,” “Special Rules,” & “Evil Wins” rules.", gets a bit fuzzy in places. In searching there's about 8 (+/- 2 as I may not have written all of them down on my notecard) schemes that have setup criteria based on number of players. For most it's fairly straight forward. i.e. Legacy Virus: # of Wounds = Players * 6, so this one would be total players (including mastermind) to get the total.

There are a few, however, that have criteria specifically aimed at modifications for solo play:
- Save Humanity has a setup that if solo bystanders are to be 12, otherwise it's 24. With a playable mastermind would I put 12 or 24 into the hero deck?
- Crush them with My Bare Hands says if there's one player to add an extra Villain Group. With a playable mastermind would I also add this, or not?

It's really a question of which rule is supposed to take priority - does the rule for adding the mastermind for scheme setup trump the previous rule of not counting the mastermind for determining heroes, villains, etc?


In both of those cases I would set up as though there were 1 player.

My reasoning for this is that in both cases it's about the pacing and content of the hero deck, so if you're going to use a single player hero deck then the scheme adjustments would also apply to that single player relevant hero deck.

That's not exactly official but that's what makes sense to me.


I disagree. Pretty sure that "the Scheme does count the Mastermind Player as a "player", including its "Setup," "Special Rules," & "Evil Wins" rules." means that the Scheme does count the Mastermind Player as a "player", including its "Setup," "Special Rules," & "Evil Wins" rules. So in both instances, you are referring to "Setup" or "Special Rules" so, in both instances, the Mastermind should be counted as a "player"... Seems pretty straight forward to me.
 
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Daniel Hogan
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redvulture wrote:
There are two distinct rules for setting up games with a playable mastermind. The first is pretty straightforward - "Use a number of Heroes, Villains, Henchmen, and Bystanders based on the number of “Heroic players,” not the Mastermind Player." Got it, simple!

The second, "However, the Scheme does count the Mastermind Player as a “player”, including its “Setup,” “Special Rules,” & “Evil Wins” rules.", gets a bit fuzzy in places. In searching there's about 8 (+/- 2 as I may not have written all of them down on my notecard) schemes that have setup criteria based on number of players. For most it's fairly straight forward. i.e. Legacy Virus: # of Wounds = Players * 6, so this one would be total players (including mastermind) to get the total.

There are a few, however, that have criteria specifically aimed at modifications for solo play:
- Save Humanity has a setup that if solo bystanders are to be 12, otherwise it's 24. With a playable mastermind would I put 12 or 24 into the hero deck?
- Crush them with My Bare Hands says if there's one player to add an extra Villain Group. With a playable mastermind would I also add this, or not?

It's really a question of which rule is supposed to take priority - does the rule for adding the mastermind for scheme setup trump the previous rule of not counting the mastermind for determining heroes, villains, etc?


I would take it at face value, especially considering how much harder it is to fight a player as a Mastermind. In that case, it'd be a little weird. You'd have three heroes in the hero deck, but you'd have the scheme equal to two players. Kinda nutty.

Any chance Devin could chime in on this?
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James Drury
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redvulture wrote:
There are two distinct rules for setting up games with a playable mastermind.


I'm not sure if this is clear to you or not, but the phrasing or your sentence leads to believe otherwise. These are not 2 different rules, but rather 2 parts of the same rule.
For decks A,B,C use this mindset... for decks X,Y,Z use this mindset.

Quote:
There are a few, however, that have criteria specifically aimed at modifications for solo play:


Using these schemes as examples, you'd never really play a Playable Mastermind in a solo game anyway, there would be no Hero players and the Mastermind would win by default.

Therefore all games including a Playable Mastermind are at minimum 2 player.

Quote:
- Save Humanity has a setup that if solo bystanders are to be 12, otherwise it's 24. With a playable mastermind would I put 12 or 24 into the hero deck?


24, as the Mastermind never plays alone.

Quote:
- Crush them with My Bare Hands says if there's one player to add an extra Villain Group. With a playable mastermind would I also add this, or not?


No, again the Mastermind never plays solo.


At least this is my interpretation.
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Joe McNulty
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And thus it's really not that cut and dry. Card counts are a big difference between a solo set-up and 2-player - Villain deck solo is 13 cards + scheme twists, vs 2 player which is 33 cards + scheme twists. Hero Deck solo is 42 cards, 2 player it's 70 cards. (Math in public, and from memory, so I might be a card or three off )

Also, they use the term "solo" on Crush Them Scheme (not sure about Save Humanity as I don't have access to my cards atm). Does that override count? So yeah, not so clear. It may have been overlooked, or maybe these schemes are simply not compatible with a 1v1 game.

Not to mention if you do that math with "Crush them with My Bare Hands" you can't actually lose solo. 1 Master Strike + 5 Scheme Twists = 6 effective Master Strikes, and you need 8 for Evil to Win. The worse you can do solo, as written, is standoff. Strictly solo mode, of course, advanced solo doesn't have this issue.

So yeah, prob need some official ruling or errata else we'll be chasing our RAW vs RAI tails all day.
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Daniel Hogan
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redvulture wrote:
(not sure about Save Humanity as I don't have access to my cards atm).


Hey Joe, when I post on these Forums, I use this link to make sure I'm still on track:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1243890/complete-card-text-...

Otherwise I'd be a mess.
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David A
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redvulture wrote:
Not to mention if you do that math with "Crush them with My Bare Hands" you can't actually lose solo. 1 Master Strike + 5 Scheme Twists = 6 effective Master Strikes, and you need 8 for Evil to Win. The worse you can do solo, as written, is standoff. Strictly solo mode, of course, advanced solo doesn't have this issue.


Actually, the Advanced Solo Rules have you incorporate all 5 Master Strikes which means, with the Scheme Twists, there are 10 possible Master Strikes.

Overall though, I think Mr Drury hit the nail on the head: You're never going to have a solo game with a Mastermind player. If you're playing solo, you're the heroic player. The minimum number of players to have a Playable Mastermind is two: the heroic player and the MM player.
 
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Joe McNulty
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Thud105 wrote:
redvulture wrote:
...advanced solo doesn't have this issue.


Actually, the Advanced Solo Rules have you incorporate all 5 Master Strikes which means, with the Scheme Twists, there are 10 possible Master Strikes.

Yes, that is what I indicated.

Thud105 wrote:
Overall though, I think Mr Drury hit the nail on the head: You're never going to have a solo game with a Mastermind player. If you're playing solo, you're the heroic player. The minimum number of players to have a Playable Mastermind is two: the heroic player and the MM player.

Of course you're not playing solo with a playable mastermind. The schemes, however, have specific exceptions for playing solo heroes. These modifications were done for those schemes to adjust for the much smaller deck sizes when setting up for solo play. And are these adjustments needed when playing 1v1? That is the question at hand.

For Save Humanity, perhaps not because it also doubles the number needed for evil to win. But then again, the ratios still get whacky. RAW, you'd have a Hero deck of 42 cards then add 24, for a total of 66 - a bit over 33% the cards. Compared to honoring the 1 player rule when playing 1v1 which would be 42 cards then add 12, total of 54 - putting it around 23% of the card. Versus a standard 2 player game where the Hero Deck is 70 cards then add 24, for a total of 94 which also puts it near 22%. It's a pretty big difference if you build a 1v1 and use 2+ player bystanders, but it might be fine, or it might not be.

Crush Them seems hosed for a 1v1 anyway. Only way I see to use it would be to use the Advanced Solo Play when doing a 1v1. Thus may have to be excluded from normal solo set-up in a 1v1 situation.
 
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