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Subject: Combat: Can someone explain how the token system works? rss

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james napoli
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hi,

Can someone either explain or point me to an explanation of how the new combat system works?

thanks in advance

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Enon Sci
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Gorfinger wrote:



6) As for the token system, I think they chose the idea of the other player making decisions to keep other players in the game engaged. to be honest you could throw the monster tokens in a little dice box or on the table or whatever and you just do the math. Combat damage markers are cancelled by shields and vice versa, the big decisions come from when to use surge effects, when to optionally flip tokens to better sides for you on things like melee or lower theirs for say shields, and when to apply the weird wild symbol that doubles a token symbol *some melee symbols have a x2 for example so it would make it 4 attacks, a mighty blow indeed* So you can choose to make the monster attack oriented, defense focused or whatever but you are still limited by the token symbols you can achieve. The emphasis would still be to do the most damage to character with the least damage returned, will you expend some protection to double your damage or tighten up your armor to prepare for an egregious blow?


Does that help at all? I would be happy to continue answering to the best of my ability!
 
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Wesley Hayward
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Though the above quote gives you a rough idea, I can give you a step by step:

Basically, you encounter a monster/enemy via questing. This is done by typically encountering the orange type quests. Upon drawing a monster, the card is passed to the player on your right, who will act for it during the combat.

At this point you gather your pile of tokens next to your hero. These tokens are a collection of basic hero tokens (typically 3), as well as any tokens added via special quests or equipment. The monster player collects the monster tokens, there are 5 of these unless the turn marker passed the last space on the time track for the first time, this spawns the boss and adds a sixth token to the monster pile.

Each player shakes up their tokens in hand, and drops them on the table. The visible sides are pretty much the actions you can take. Some tokens have gold icons, these count towards initiative. Higher initiative goes first.

The first player picks a token to use as an action. If the token symbol matches others, you can add them to it. For example, an axe means attack power (even though you might not actually have an axe equipped). Each axe is 1 damage. If my token throw has an axe, and another token has an axe with a 2, you can group them together for 3 damage. Once you choose your action those tokens are spent, then the other player chooses one action. This keeps going until neither player has any more useable tokens. Once all tokens are spent, each player in combat gathers them all up again (even spent ones) and gives them another shake and toss. EDIT: For clarity, you don't have to "spend" all your tokens. You may have tossed a surge that you cannot use, for example.

This repeats until either the player is KO'ed or the monster is slain.

Token actions I've seen at Gencon:
-Axe: attack power
-Wing: can be used to flip one of your tokens to its other side, or can make an opponent toss a token again
-Lightning bolt (surge): Used to activate abilities on your hero/monster or equipment. Can only activate one surge ability per token toss
-Shield: negates incoming damage equal to amount of shields you tossed. These are used in reaction to an attack, not on your turn as an action.
-Hyphen: this means nothing. These symbols can be golden, however.

Does this help?
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Enon Sci
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Thank you, Wesley.

Though I knew most of that, I had been wondering about initiative. It was also interesting to know that like token stack (is like determined by symbol alone, or is there a color coding as well?).

This system really seems deeper to me than dice. MAYBE they could have invented a die based system that would have been just as deep (using symbolic die, like in descent), but this is at least superior to 10 sided numerical dice.

Wesley, the one thing you left out was your personal opinion of the system. Ultimately, though it sounds cool (and certainly gives more to think about while in play, a mini-puzzle if you will), my positive outlook is no different from the naysayers who haven't touched the system. In your opinion, how was it? And, to contrast, what was your opinion of 2e combat at the same relative level?
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james napoli
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snojo800 wrote:
Though the above quote gives you a rough idea, I can give you a step by step:

Basically, you encounter a monster/enemy via questing. This is done by typically encountering the orange type quests. Upon drawing a monster, the card is passed to the player on your right, who will act for it during the combat.

At this point you gather your pile of tokens next to your hero. These tokens are a collection of basic hero tokens (typically 3), as well as any tokens added via special quests or equipment. The monster player collects the monster tokens, there are 5 of these unless the turn marker passed the last space on the time track for the first time, this spawns the boss and adds a sixth token to the monster pile.

Each player shakes up their tokens in hand, and drops them on the table. The visible sides are pretty much the actions you can take. Some tokens have gold icons, these count towards initiative. Higher initiative goes first.

The first player picks a token to use as an action. If the token symbol matches others, you can add them to it. For example, an axe means attack power (even though you might not actually have an axe equipped). Each axe is 1 damage. If my token throw has an axe, and another token has an axe with a 2, you can group them together for 3 damage. Once you choose your action those tokens are spent, then the other player chooses one action. This keeps going until neither player has any more useable tokens. Once all tokens are spent, each player in combat gathers them all up again (even spent ones) and gives them another shake and toss. EDIT: For clarity, you don't have to "spend" all your tokens. You may have tossed a surge that you cannot use, for example.

This repeats until either the player is KO'ed or the monster is slain.

Token actions I've seen at Gencon:
-Axe: attack power
-Wing: can be used to flip one of your tokens to its other side, or can make an opponent toss a token again
-Lightning bolt (surge): Used to activate abilities on your hero/monster or equipment. Can only activate one surge ability per token toss
-Shield: negates incoming damage equal to amount of shields you tossed. These are used in reaction to an attack, not on your turn as an action.
-Hyphen: this means nothing. These symbols can be golden, however.

Does this help?


It does, thanks for taking the time out to explain. How was it, is it fun, are there interesting choices to make?
i'll admit that i enjoyed the combat of 2nd Edition, and i don't know that this sounds better per se, but i'm interested to try it.
 
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My wife and I got a chance to demo this at GenCon and we both liked the game a lot, specifically the combat. In fact, the disc combat was my wife's favorite aspect of the game and it was the thing she always mentioned when talking about it to other people. It definitely felt deeper than dice based combats and allowed some more strategy (though not a ton). I think it is a solid design and I am really looking forward to this release!
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Enon Sci
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omegalife2002 wrote:
My wife and I got a chance to demo this at GenCon and we both liked the game a lot, specifically the combat. In fact, the disc combat was my wife's favorite aspect of the game and it was the thing she always mentioned when talking about it to other people. It definitely felt deeper than dice based combats and allowed some more strategy (though not a ton). I think it is a solid design and I am really looking forward to this release!


I'm really impressed with the modern iteration of "roll to determine" play -- whether it be tokens or dice, games like this and Race for the Galaxy, Nations the Dice Game, Discoveries, etc, they all add a stage intermediate to resolution where the player can puzzle and play with their options.

This is one huge reason I support the token system with 3e, in some ways the game begins after the "roll," where as in 2e the game was the roll. We all maligned "roll and move" in the early 2000s without even realizing we were still embracing an equally dated "roll and determine" approach to combat.

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Anarchosyn wrote:

This is one huge reason I support the token system with 3e, in some ways the game begins after the "roll," where as in 2e the game was the roll. We all maligned "roll and move" in the early 2000s without even realizing we were still embracing an equally dated "roll and determine" approach to combat.

While you're still in the mood to bash 2nd ED, you do realize the movement mechanism in both games is basically an iteration of "roll and move", right?
 
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Enon Sci
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Montag451 wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:

This is one huge reason I support the token system with 3e, in some ways the game begins after the "roll," where as in 2e the game was the roll. We all maligned "roll and move" in the early 2000s without even realizing we were still embracing an equally dated "roll and determine" approach to combat.

While you're still in the mood to bash 2nd ED, you do realize the movement mechanism in both games is basically an iteration of "roll and move", right?


Iteration, yes. So was Prophecy. But think what "iterative" means: it is an evolution upon the form (and let me be clear here: "roll and move" is not being taken as a literal expression, but an idiomatic expression meaning the style seen specifically in Talisman and Monopoly -- many games involve rolling and moving that wouldn't be "roll and move" in this sense).

See the first reply here for a decent description of the phenomena: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/596661/whats-deal-roll-and-...

In other words, conventional roll and move, by definition, has predetermination in distance as a quality (again, like in Monopoly or Talisman). The term is derided more for this element than any of the others, the lack of strategic or tactical thinking the game even allowed when engaging in the mechanic (you roll a 6, you move 6).

To be fair, Talisman was iterative on this as well, since it allowed you to determine direction around the ring (and sometimes across rings). Novel at the time, but still terribly dated... much like the roll and damage determinism of Runebound 2e.

And I'll be in the mood to bash 2e for a long while yet. The game was garbage, but I've been civilly holding my tongue till now (post work, I'm too tired to be diplomatic). I get you probably liked it more than me, and that is fair -- I'm sure you consider some of the euros I love trash too (I'm more a Trajan guy than a [insert Ameritrash title here] player). But at the end of the day, I'll be honest, I consider 2e -- especially base 2e -- utter trash (with a smart movement mechanic and cool items to acquire).

p.s. though I'm happy to go back and forth with you, this likely isn't the best place to do it (some other dude's thread ostensibly about everything *but* what we're discussing). I don't want to derail a discussion I'm still very interested in seeing continue, so PM me if you want to get the last word.

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Thomas King
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You do seem to have a lot of hate towards older games.
 
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Enon Sci
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Montag451 wrote:
You do seem to have a lot of hate towards older games.


I edited in a P.S. you couldn't have seen (as you were posting when I was editing). I'll leave it at this: my hate was formed when it was still quite spry and fresh. It has only been refined with age.

Anyhoo, check my P.S. and PM me if you want to derail this more (note: I'm just as culpable as you, I know).
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Thomas King
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Nah, you're edited part made it quite clear, I'd rather not talk to some one so charged up and ready to pick a fight.

Yes, I like Runebound 2nd quite a bit. I also like some euros (crazy, right? Liking other things too?). Have fun. In the future, just be honest. Don't tap dance around things if you hate them. Just say you hate them.
 
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Frank Franco
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Quote:

While you're still in the mood to bash 2nd ED, you do realize the movement mechanism in both games is basically an iteration of "roll and move", right?

Anarchosyn wrote:

Iteration, yes. So was Prophecy.



You don't roll dice to move in prophecy.
shake
 
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Montag451 wrote:
Nah, you're edited part made it quite clear, I'd rather not talk to some one so charged up and ready to pick a fight.

Yes, I like Runebound 2nd quite a bit. I also like some euros (crazy, right? Liking other things too?). Have fun. In the future, just be honest. Don't tap dance around things if you hate them. Just say you hate them.


You clearly haven't looked at this chap's games collection, or the excellent comment/reviews he's written about each. I'm finding his comments incredibly useful across these forums, whereas you seem to be the one who is unhappy.

As an aside, this week I've been researching Waddington's games from the 70s and 80s and the acceptable gameplay systems back then were horrendous to say the least (roll and move, player elimination, missing three turns and more!!). RB's system is simply evolving with the times, introducing even more flexibility per turn so you always feel there is an option to dosomething good. Just as i'll pull out a copy of the text adventure of Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy on PC (now I am showing my age) and enjoy it - i'll still pull out RB 1 and 2 in the same way in the future.
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Wesley Hayward
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Glad I shed a little extra light on it for you Enon!

Personally I haven't played 2e...always wanted to but when I started looking to buy, it was way OOP and expensive. From what I've heard 2e was rolling d10's kind've like a simple skill check correct?

Either way, the tokens made an interesting dynamic between players, but that really depended on your toss and hero equipment, as your results get more interesting with a few extra tokens in your repertoire. I will say though, sometimes if a toss is less than ideal, you'll be stuck with a bit of damage (or something else) and nothing else to do. those tosses really limit your decisions and you'll find yourself tossing over the tokens you can use and pretty much say "2 damage...I guess I'm done for this round".

However, it does get interesting when you get a nice varied toss. At that point you'll need to look at what you can do, then look at the opponent's pile and monster card. Some monsters can cancel attacks with a surge (they have to do this in advance though), others might be able to cause multiple tokens to be tossed again (like the player's wing icon on their tokens), other monsters might have a surge that hits really, really hard. The combat then becomes a game in itself trying to figure out your best combo and anticipating what your opponent will do based on your piles and abilities. It also makes the combat more dynamic, not just adding totals. Note that this does mean that any long battles will create downtime for the other players. When I played a demo, it didn't seem too long even with an ogre that clocks in at 8 HP.

I personally liked it, though it was awkward "rolling" tokens rather than dice, but once you see the amount of unique tokens it's easy to see why they went that route: pure variety with the ability to cater to specific results based on how you want to develop your hero. You have some awesome surge abilities? Shop around for equipment that has that result (shown on the cards). It's those kinds of choices that I enjoy when playing a game with character customization/advancement mechanics. Dice would have been more natural, but this way you're hedging combat results on tokens with 50% chance (ideally, *insert variables and statistics arguments here*) to land on one side or the other. This also makes it feel like equipment has a different impact based on its type or quality than gathering a pool of dice.

I do understand where everyone comes from on the negative side, it's different. The pieces will wear, and it's a bit awkward when you toss your first couple token piles. Hopefully anyone curious might be able to play a friend's copy or hit a board game night at a store. I think it will take trying the combat to convince most players if they truly despise the system, can live with it, or like it. If I didn't try it first I would've been skeptical, and I love my dice rolling. I think it's a nice departure from the norm, I just wish I could've played several games worth to really weigh in on how different it will be to develop certain characters with different equipment/skills and how it affects your combat strategy. Apologies on the short novel I've typed here...

TL,DR: I liked the new system even with its initial awkwardness. Tokens are unique and give more emphasis on combat result customization. Combat seems more dynamic with multiple turns. I still believe that tokens may wear and continue to be awkward for some, but the depth and differing combat possibilities does outshine straight dice totaling, IMO.

EDIT: some grammar
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John
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Thanks for the comments Wesley. After several days of thought the token wear does not bother me much but I still worry that "rolling" cardboard tokens will not lead to randomized results. Do you forsee any issues with the tokens not moving enough in the roll to randomize their sides or is there enough heft in them that there is no concern?
 
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snojo800 wrote:
*KLIP*


Can you elaborate on how equipment was handled a bit? I mean, were their limits on either having elements equipped or carried?



Mr Skeletor wrote:
Quote:

While you're still in the mood to bash 2nd ED, you do realize the movement mechanism in both games is basically an iteration of "roll and move", right?

Anarchosyn wrote:

Iteration, yes. So was Prophecy.



You don't roll dice to move in prophecy.
shake


Never said you did. Can you honestly deny Prophecy's movement was an iteration on the Monopoly (re: Talisman) system of movement?

Baby steps.

Monopoly: roll and locked into movement, unidirectional.
Talisman: same, but added bidirectionality (with spell/character flourishes).
Prophecy: Ditches the dice, but maintains bidirectionality. Still very obviously a step in the evolution begun with Monopoly.
Runebound: (not influenced by Prophecy, likely) Ditches the limitations of bidirectionality and introduces terrain dice.
 
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Besides Wesley's token list, there are at least 3 others:

A burst icon for Magic action. Two that I've not seen explained: the overlapping circles icon (which could be the icon for doubling an action) and the skull icon (which I think is only for NPCs).

Also, in the BGG TV demo, Anton Torres said that after 1 round (when all the token actions have been spent), the active player can try to retreat or can continue combat.

It's also worth noting that rather than bonuses based on attributes, you upgrade your character's equipment, which can add more tokens to your casting pool. This is similar to upgrading your character's powers in 2e, but it has perhaps a more subtle build flavor. Playing the same character twice won't necessarily play the same. (I also think that you'll get items and gear more often in 3e than you'd level up in 2e. But I haven't played 3e so I'm surmising.)

3e combat is also more interactive. While in 2e, a player handled all of his own combat, 3e requires another person to cast the tokens and then select the actions. Plus, an Agility token can force the other player to re-cast a token (or flip one of your tokens), and the Surges can possibly given you a power to modify the opposing player's token or results.

Also, because challenges are based on type (combat, social, mission) and not on difficulty, it would seem that combat will be less prevalent in this version (though still important). In 2e, I often found an interesting tension between the difficulty deck--when to go for which type. I'm curious to see how the dynamics among the 3e decks play out.

I was very apprehensive about this system, but after reading more and thinking about it, I'm less apprehensive of the token system. I'm definitely ready to try it, even excited. (I do think the combat will be longer, not shorter, in 3e than 2e, but again, playing the game will tell the tale.)
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Thank you to everyone that took the time to write out ll of these explanations. It actually increased my interest in this game. I was concerned that it'll basically be. Dice fest that lasts for 3 hours... The combat mechanic makes me lookforeard to more.
 
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Wesley Hayward
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whiskemuscles wrote:
Thanks for the comments Wesley. After several days of thought the token wear does not bother me much but I still worry that "rolling" cardboard tokens will not lead to randomized results. Do you forsee any issues with the tokens not moving enough in the roll to randomize their sides or is there enough heft in them that there is no concern?


Truthfully, I think it comes down to what you're using to cast the tokens...using hands could greatly affect how they flip based on hand size and how you can accommodate shaking them (maybe a lot, maybe none at all). The results from the combat I've seen were fairly varied, but I think the best results will come from tossing them in a cup, shaking, and slapping it down. This *should* prevent stuff like tokens sticking to sweaty hands (didn't see that though), or uneven hand volume not allowing the tokens to really randomize in your hands...unless you use whatever cup is in front of you and don't realize that's the one your mountain dew was in. Also, anyone who gets really into it will likely send tokens flying everywhere; just by dropping them on the table I've had a few roll away, kind've annoying. You could always do a coin flip style one by one though, then it's in full view of everyone, just slower.

And I apologize for my wording on rolling, I meant that as an allusion to dice being the typical medium for combat...I would not recommend rolling these tokens. During the demo we just shook them up and dropped them or slapped them on the table.
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Sergio Donato
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I urgently need your help.

In rules it's not clearly mentioned if different combat tokens cannot used simultaneously (except for Magic Damage and Physical Damage).

May I have this situation?
(Sorry for the italian cards, but I'm here, in the sunny Italy. I'm sure you can interpret the symbols on card.)



 
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I'm pretty sure the rules reference mention exactly this, that you can spend only one token type at the time. Thus you cannot spend magical and physical damage together (curious to hear if it's yet another disaster of Italian translations...)
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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darlok wrote:
(...) how the new combat system works?


Pretty damn well.
 
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rattkin wrote:
darlok wrote:
(...) how the new combat system works?


Pretty damn well.

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Sergio Donato
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
I'm pretty sure the rules reference mention exactly this, that you can spend only one token type at the time. Thus you cannot spend magical and physical damage together (curious to hear if it's yet another disaster of Italian translations...)


Thanks, Julia.

No.
It's not specified in english rules either.
I read Combat, Combat Action, Combat Deck, Combat Pool, Combat Tokens.

I think a "Combat Action" is summed up by the "Combat Action" per type at pag. 16 of Rules Reference, but it's an act of common sense, not a (well) written rule.
 
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