Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
28 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Codenames» Forums » General

Subject: Playable only 16 times? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jordan Sorenson
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, and I'm not saying this is a bad feature of the game, but with 25 cards per game, and 400 words, and 15 minutes per game, these are the correct statistics when considering the same play group correct?

400 words / 25 words a game =
16 different configurations x 15 minutes a game =
4 hours of play time for 20 bucks.

This may or may not be worth it to the buyer, but its an interesting stat none the less. I've paid a whole lot more for less fun than this game probably provides.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Newsham
United Kingdom
Halifax
West Yorkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/discretemathematic...


It's 3 followed by 39 zeroes combinations


3374984143967003227518313193523922790016 to be precise
29 
 Thumb up
0.04
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you're talking strictly seeing unique words each game, then yes. No reason an app (official or otherwise) can't come along and change that though...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Rqthstar
United States
Laurel
Maryland
flag msg tools
Come together, together as one
badge
Perhaps in a perfect world, the ring would be a symbol of happiness
Avatar
mbmb
jss05a wrote:
Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, and I'm not saying this is a bad feature of the game, but with 25 cards per game, and 400 words, and 15 minutes per game, these are the correct statistics when considering the same play group correct?

400 words / 25 words a game =
16 different configurations x 15 minutes a game =
4 hours of play time for 20 bucks.

This may or may not be worth it to the buyer, but its an interesting stat none the less. I've paid a whole lot more for less fun than this game probably provides.

Yeah, I think you messed up when you divided 400 by 25 to get 16 configurations. The actual number of configurations is c(400, 25) which is quite a bit bigger. (greater than 3x10^39 as mentioned above)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Thornsen
United States
Nottingham
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's a pretty big over-simplification of the game.

The game changes pretty drastically based on the layout of the grid, as well as which team owns which cards.

In particular, a clue like "Animal: 3" would be devastating if "Dog" was the Assassin.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kerstin
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In addition to the many more combinations of 25 words you have, you also forgot about the fact that there are many different combinations which words actually belong to which team.
So even with the exact same 25 words in the same grid the words that you have to give a clue are different and therefore the clues you need to give to describe them.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Pelton
United Kingdom
Hucknall
Nottinghamshire
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Even then you're not factoring in the grid cards, each of which have 4 possible orientations, and player groups as well which will evolve with subsequent plays.

I think this game has much more than 4 hours play. ;-)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tarnop wrote:
http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/discretemathematic...


It's 3 followed by 39 zeroes combinations


3374984143967003227518313193523922790016 to be precise


Actually, I don't think the combinations are quite that high, since the words are double-sided, so selecting the word on one side will prohibit the word on the opposite side from also appearing in that combination.

Still, it's a huge number.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Mease
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Only 16 times if you don't use a different Spymaster card and don't rotate it at all!

Try playing where you don't lose your turn unless you get a wrong answer. Makes the game literally the worst game ever. We figured out what we were doing wrong. whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lee Fisher
United States
Downingtown
PA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pvtparts wrote:
If you're talking strictly seeing unique words each game, then yes. No reason an app (official or otherwise) can't come along and change that though...


They said they expect to have app out before it hits stores.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lfisher wrote:
pvtparts wrote:
If you're talking strictly seeing unique words each game, then yes. No reason an app (official or otherwise) can't come along and change that though...


They said they expect to have app out before it hits stores.


I heard the same from somewhere, but was under the impression that it would generate Spymaster keys only. Not sure. No reason, I guess, they wouldn't include a word grid generator as well!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jordan Sorenson
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
The spymaster keys I guess is what I was worried about, since a consistent play group could memorize the configurations and know their team's words with a few key solves.

Looking forward to the app and the game!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Rubinstein

Long Beach
California
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Faranim wrote:
In particular, a clue like "Animal: 3" would be devastating if "Dog" was the Assassin.


I've never played the game, and don't know how it's played, but I found this very amusing.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jss05a wrote:
Looking forward to the app and the game!


If you are really impatient or want to play PnP, someone has setup a webapp which generates keys here: cn.retrobox.eu
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Tarr
United States
Floyds Knobs
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jss05a wrote:
...a consistent play group could memorize the configurations and know their team's words with a few key solves.


I don't really see that happening. There are 40 different key cards, and each has 4 possible orientations, so that's 160 different grid layouts.

Edited to add: Well, I suppose you could narrow it down to 80 possible layouts, since the team going first is defined by the card, so you can immediately eliminate half of the grid cards... But the point still stands.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hans Moleman
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
I was saying boo-urns
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Even playing with one set of 25 words but only changing the grid formation would alter the game significantly.

So you have 25 different grids [I think there are 25, not sure] at 4 different orientations -- that's 100 potential different set up with the same 25 words.

Yeah I guess it can get very samey, but it's still different enough to not have the same clue as the assassian and reds/blues will change.

Now factor in changing some or all of the words and you will never get the same game twice. EVER.

Edit- statistically you would, BUT it's not practical.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Igor Larchenko
Russia
Ivanteevka
Moscow region
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I uploaded pdf form for printing cards with custom words. It looks like this:

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Tarr
United States
Floyds Knobs
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So the number of grid combinations is computed like this (because of the double-sided cards)...

400×398×396×394×...×354×352

Multiply that by 160, the number of possible key layouts...

Multiply that by 15 minutes per game...

You come to 10^62 YEARS worth of unique games, if you never get a duplicate...

So... I think we can get our money's worth... If we hurry...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Near infinite replayability, in my opinion.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jss05a wrote:
Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, and I'm not saying this is a bad feature of the game, but with 25 cards per game, and 400 words, and 15 minutes per game, these are the correct statistics when considering the same play group correct?

400 words / 25 words a game =
16 different configurations x 15 minutes a game =
4 hours of play time for 20 bucks.

This may or may not be worth it to the buyer, but its an interesting stat none the less. I've paid a whole lot more for less fun than this game probably provides.


first, the arrangement of the words matters. Next, the words that are included together matter. Finally, each card has 4 ways to be placed as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pvtparts wrote:
lfisher wrote:
pvtparts wrote:
If you're talking strictly seeing unique words each game, then yes. No reason an app (official or otherwise) can't come along and change that though...


They said they expect to have app out before it hits stores.


I heard the same from somewhere, but was under the impression that it would generate Spymaster keys only. Not sure. No reason, I guess, they wouldn't include a word grid generator as well!


definitely just randomly generated spymaster keys to start.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And when you get bored with the words provided. play the game using 25 cards against humanity cards.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Gallagher
United States
Torrance
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rathstar wrote:
Yeah, I think you messed up when you divided 400 by 25 to get 16 configurations. The actual number of configurations is c(400, 25) which is quite a bit bigger. (greater than 3x10^39 as mentioned above)

According to my Excel spreadsheet, C(400,25) = 3.37e39.

Note that the cards are double-sided. Thus many of the combos won't come up. Even so, there should be zero chance of two games being exactly the same (especially when considering the placement of the agents).

A crazy idea popped into my head this morning. Why not play this using the white cards from Cards Against Humanity? (For those offended by foul language, try Apples to Apples cards. Note that any number of other games will work - for instance, Pictionary. There is another thread here that mentions using Snake Oil cards.)

I will definitely be picking up a copy once it hits my FLGS (much to the the chagrin of my regular group, who prefers I play nothing but 18xx).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michał
Netherlands
Amsterdam
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm, nobody gave the exact formula yet. Well, let me try then...

With 200 double sided cards the number of distinct sets is:

200 choose 25 * 2 ^ 25 = 1.5e+39

Then there are different assignments of the words to the different teams (note that while you cannot get to all the combinations using the provided key cards, you can by rearranging the words, so it does not matter):

25! / 9! / 8! / 7! = 210344706000 (times 2 if you consider swapping red and blue different games).


Overall the number is:

3.19e+50


Of course this number is completely abstract and has nothing to do with the replayability. Not to mention that even if you could only play 16 games of 15 minutes overall, this is still good value for money (of course provided that you enjoy the game, but if not, why worry about te replayability in the first place).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Newsham
United Kingdom
Halifax
West Yorkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And if you lived long enough to play every combo you could by another set to remove the either/or restriction of the double sided cards
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.