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A Game of Thrones: The Card Game (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Does Melisandre Trigger off of herself? rss

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Voodoo Chile
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Melisandre kneels a character when a R'hollor card is played. She herself is a R'hollor card and I'm wondering if a character is knelt when she is put into play?

If she's again played as a duplicate, would she get to kneel a character again?
 
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Chris Jackson
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I think she triggers herself, since she has to enter play to trigger any other reactions. But that's a good question for a more official rules forum.

As for the duplicate, that's a no. RRG says that duplicates have no text or traits and that marshalling them is just considered marshalling a duplicate.
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Lytic Phage
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Chris's answers are both correct.

Once she is marshalled, she is in play during the reaction window to a R'hllor card being marshalled, and can therefor trigger.

However, marshalling a duplicate is a textless/titleless card - since a R'hllor card was never marshalled or played, she wouldn't trigger.

You'll find a more complete explanation of the latter here: http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/26882-rhll...
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Norman S.
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The preview article specifically mentions that she triggers off herself.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/6/22/the-cro...
 
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David Williams
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That's correct. But I don't know how one is supposed to know it without the article.
 
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Helmut Hohberger
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The Old Man wrote:
But I don't know how one is supposed to know it without the article.

By reading the card text and applying it literally? Why wouldn't she be able to be triggered off herself being marshalled?

Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with asking the question. Who knows if you haven't missed some obscure rule, right? But you're basically suggesting that people have no way of knowing if the card does what it says it does. But that's the default - if a card says you can do X after Y has happened, the assumption should be that you can do X after Y has happened.
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Matt Gordier
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Just to play devil's advocate to help me understand; I look at it this way when reading it:

-Melisandre is marshaled and enters play
-Now her text effect comes in to play: "After you marshall or summon..."
-Because she was already in play when this effect activated, nothing happens until the next R'hllor character comes in.

It seems like it's almost retroactive that she is able to effect herself. I'm not arguing, I've read the article myself. I just don't see why that works that way.

Sorry if this has been done ad nauseum, I just cant seem to get a grasp on the timings.

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Simon C
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MattG666 wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate to help me understand; I look at it this way when reading it:

-Melisandre is marshaled and enters play
-Now her text effect comes in to play: "After you marshall or summon..."
-Because she was already in play when this effect activated, nothing happens until the next R'hllor character comes in.

It seems like it's almost retroactive that she is able to effect herself. I'm not arguing, I've read the article myself. I just don't see why that works that way.

Sorry if this has been done ad nauseum, I just cant seem to get a grasp on the timings.



After a trigger happens, there's a "Reaction" window. Since Melisandre is in play by the time of that reaction window, she can use her Reaction abiliy.

On the flip side, if her ability was an Interrupt, then it wouldn't trigger off herself, because the Interrupt window is before the trigger actually happens. But Reaction in this case works nicely in her benefit
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Derrick Billings
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I think MattG666 plays Netrunner, because what he describes is reminiscent of the niceties of that game's timing structure.

There are a number of very common cards that trigger at the start of the turn. However, if such a card was put into play by a start of turn effect, it does not trigger because it wasn't active when the turn began. In so many words, we have a situation where we say "Start of turn is not a window in which effects happen. It's a line that you cross. Anything not active when you crossed that line, doesn't trigger."

This is not precisely true of AGOT, though. This game does have windows. In this instance, Melisandra, a R'hllor card, comes into play. That happens, it's done.

Then, there *is* a window for reactions, and it stays open until all reactions are done. Say you had an ability to say "Reaction: When a character is knelt, draw a card." So you Play Melisandre, trigger her reaction, trigger the knelt reaction, and the card you draw itself has a Reaction to either a character being knelt (in which case you would be able to play it immediately) or to a R'hllor character coming into play, which you could still play after there were no further reactions to the kneeling.

After all reactions have fired, the window closes.

If Netrunner functioned that way, you'd be able to install your Daily Casts off The Supplier, it would immediately pay out its $2, and your Hyperdriver would come off your Personal Workshop and you could immediately use it to get those extra actions.

Thrones works that way, Netrunner doesn't.
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Voodoo Chile
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I play Netrunner too, which is why I asked. My opponent, who wasn't too happy about having a character knelt when Melisandre came into play (the same round as a Filthy Accusations), is also a Netrunner player which is what prompted this question in the first place!
 
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Matt Gordier
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The only LCG I own is the first edition core set, and I've played the Star Wars one a couple times. So your Android example went way over my head lol. I guess the whole 'window' thing is what confuses me, I'll have to go read some more timing charts

So essentially with AGOT I have to think in a more 'my effect triggers your effect which triggers his effect' sort of deal?

I don't know, I've always thought that way when making a rules judgement on game night; you 'cross lines' as you say, and I avoid retroactive effects like the plague. Unless of course it makes sense and would otherwise make the effect useless.
 
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Derrick Billings
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Somebody (maybe somebody from this thread) asked on the FFG boards and it was pointed out that there's essentially no difference between Melisandre and Littlefinger, except that Mel refers to herself by trait and Littlefinger refers to himself by name.
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Dat reaction window.
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David Williams
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Thank you Matt for your answer to Helmut. And thanks Derrick for really make the process clear. I had troubles with 1st edition timing charts and it's my understanding that 2nd cleans this up.
 
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Sergio Perez
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Ratatoskr72 wrote:
The Old Man wrote:
But I don't know how one is supposed to know it without the article.

By reading the card text and applying it literally? Why wouldn't she be able to be triggered off herself being marshalled?

Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with asking the question. Who knows if you haven't missed some obscure rule, right? But you're basically suggesting that people have no way of knowing if the card does what it says it does. But that's the default - if a card says you can do X after Y has happened, the assumption should be that you can do X after Y has happened.


I understand the confusion though given that in many other CCG/LCGs, that is not how a card like this would work, including the most popular of all CCGs (or at least that was the case the last time I quit M:tG for good back in 2007). The timing window for reactions in this game is a little different. In Magic, a card like this wouldn't have triggered itself because it would already be in play before its ability text would become active.
 
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Duncan Idaho
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Ratatoskr72 wrote:
The Old Man wrote:
But I don't know how one is supposed to know it without the article.

By reading the card text and applying it literally? Why wouldn't she be able to be triggered off herself being marshalled?

Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wrong with asking the question. Who knows if you haven't missed some obscure rule, right? But you're basically suggesting that people have no way of knowing if the card does what it says it does. But that's the default - if a card says you can do X after Y has happened, the assumption should be that you can do X after Y has happened.


If you're not seeing the ambiguity in the card text, you've been playing 1st edition too long. This is the type of thing that I wish they had cleaned up while they were doing the rules pass.
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