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Subject: Most Overlooked Rules rss

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Steve Carey
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In no particular order... and please feel free to add your own:

1) Breakthroughs are not allowed into Amphibious locations, as the second space (7.74).

2) When a Front advances, check for removal of an opponent's (either Soviet or US/UK, depending who advanced) Clandestine Network marker in the country column that is now "behind enemy lines" (7.13). Note: this only happens once per column, not each time the Front advances.

3) When a Leader is used to advance an issue, only another active Leader can debate him (5.24). Exception: if Stalin advances the A-Bomb issue, he cannot be debated.

4) Pol-Mil issues won (each marker) require one Production to activate (6.8).

5) Once adjusted, a Global marker never reverts back to its Neutral position (6.11). Note: always pay attention to the Global tracks, even when the markers are at Neutral.

6) When using a Chief of Staff card to advance an issue, you may roll first to determine the card's value before choosing which issue to advance (5.25).

7) Results from the Pol-Mil table are not affected by the status of a Global track nor by the Arctic's conditions (5.12).

8) A player advancing/debating a conditional issue (Second Front or USSR Declares War on Japan) may, at their discretion, stop the issue's movement in the center (of the table) space (5.22). Note: this does not apply to Strategic Materials.

9) Using a Leader to advance or debate an issue requires a card to be discarded from your hand (5.26). Note: discard does not apply when using your Leader during a tiebreaker procedure (4.51/4.52).

10) The side (US or UK) who has Theater Command receives a bonus Offensive Support or Naval Support marker (6.91). Note: Theater Command is separate from the Theater Leadership issues (each of which grants two Support markers). And if the same player wins both Theater Leadership issues, they get two bonus support markers (that can be used in either theater).

11) Each player automatically gets 1 Clandestine Marker per turn (7.1).

12) If an issue is advanced to a player's chair, it can still be debated before being captured (5.23).

13) A change in Theater Command doesn't earn the extra support marker till next turn - so the current Theater Commander still gets a support marker before the change (4.23.5). Note: the example of play confirms this sequence.
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Thanks, Steve. The only one we've missed is #10, and then not every turn.

I suppose we forgot #6 also, but in all cases the roll wouldn't have changed anyone's mind.

The one we totally missed is:

11. If Strategic Production ends in the center, everyone get it.
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Dundy O
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#6--Rolling before deciding the issue.
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Rick Thompson
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Goofed #4 and #8 in my first FTF session...

I would add -
12. If advancing an issue would move it into the leader chair (taking it off the table), the other players are given the opportunity to debate the issue before it is moved.
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richard dyrda
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Steve Carey wrote:
...
2) When a Front advances, check for removal of an opponent's (either Soviet or US/UK, depending who advanced) Clandestine Network marker that is now "behind enemy lines" (7.13).
...


Only newly right? British have 2 clandestine networks in Poland and Soviets move from Ukraine to Prussia British lose 1. When the Soviets move again, the British do not lose another one right? Only those adjacent to Prussia would lose one.
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John Weber
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In addition to the above, here's a few I goofed on when teaching to others:

1. When debating an issue that was moved to an opposing side's Chair, you must offset the full value of the card used, not the number of spaces to the chair.

2. If one side wins both Theater Leadership issues, they get two additional Offensive/Naval Support to use anywhere in addition to the additional two per Theater.

3. Once a Global Issue leaves the Neutral spot, it cannot return there -- i.e., if shifted to an opposing player's side in a prior Conference, it can be moved back to the winning player's side.

And to respond to the prior poster's question, the loss of the Clandestine marker is one per country and a one-time deal at the time the Front advances. Political markers are not lost and a second clandestine market in the space means one will be left after the removal.
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Steve Carey
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sos1 wrote:
11. If Strategic Production ends in the center, everyone get it.


Good one.

Strategic Materials is an issue that can be a lot of fun - it may be tempting for one player to snag it out of the center space (perhaps to have an extra issue towards winning the conference, and/or being the only player to get the extra production).
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Steve Carey
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John Weber wrote:

1. When debating an issue that was moved to an opposing side's Chair, you must offset the full value of the card used, not the number of spaces to the chair.


Good point. So if an issue is on the 5 track, and the player advances it another 5 (to 10), another player would need to play at least a 4 to debate it down to 6 (otherwise the issue would remain on the advancing player's chair and thus be captured).

John Weber wrote:
2. If one side wins both Theater Leadership issues, they get two additional Offensive/Naval Support to use anywhere in addition to the additional two per Theater.


I admit to being confused by this - I believe 6 is that max Support a player can get if they own both Theater Commands and win both Theater Leadership issues (1 + 1 +2 +2), but perhaps I am in error.

Hopefully Mark will clarify.


John Weber wrote:
3. Once a Global Issue leaves the Neutral spot, it cannot return there -- i.e., if shifted to an opposing player's side in a prior Conference, it can be moved back to the winning player's side.


See #5 above.

John Weber wrote:
And to respond to the prior poster's question, the loss of the Clandestine marker is one per country and a one-time deal at the time the Front advances. Political markers are not lost and a second clandestine market in the space means one will be left after the removal.


Correct, thnx.
 
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Mike Oberly
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One that got me is the global abilities -- make sure you know what you can do, whether they are in Neutral, or to Advantage either side. Easy to miss on first playing.
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Steve Carey
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MikeOberly wrote:
One that got me is the global abilities -- make sure you know what you can do, whether they are in Neutral, or to Advantage either side. Easy to miss on first playing.


Agreed Mike - not to mention they're worth 5 VP each (so a 10 VP swing if you snag a Global away from your opponent).
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Steve Carey wrote:
John Weber wrote:

1. When debating an issue that was moved to an opposing side's Chair, you must offset the full value of the card used, not the number of spaces to the chair.



John Weber wrote:
2. If one side wins both Theater Leadership issues, they get two additional Offensive/Naval Support to use anywhere in addition to the additional two per Theater.


I admit to being confused by this - I believe 6 is that max production a player can get if they own both Theater Commands and win both Theater Leadership issues (1 + 1 +2 +2), but perhaps I am in error.

Hopefully Mark will clarify.

.


When you win the Theater Leadership, isn't it just Off. Markers you are gaining, not production. Sure you convert your own production to Off. Markers. But when you win Theater Leadership, you just get free Offensive Markers to put down in the fronts.
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Steve Carey
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Thnx Gordon, I mean Support (not production).

I'm still unsure as to the total markers a player could get...
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Steve Carey wrote:
John Weber wrote:
2. If one side wins both Theater Leadership issues, they get two additional Offensive/Naval Support to use anywhere in addition to the additional two per Theater.


I admit to being confused by this - I believe 6 is that max Support a player can get if they own both Theater Commands and win both Theater Leadership issues (1 + 1 +2 +2), but perhaps I am in error.

Hopefully Mark will clarify.


Despite some false starts of my own in other areas, when it comes to theater control this is what I’m sure of – players get:

1 support for commanding European Theater – place in Europe
1 support for commanding Pacific Theater – place in Pacific
2 support for winning European issue – place in Europe
2 support for winning Pacific issue – place in Pacific
2 support for winning both Europe and Pacific issues – place as you wish.

So a player could theoretically receive 8 support in a conference.

Note that the bots slightly change the priorities for where this support goes despite some of it being theater-specific for humans. To me this is a great simulation of the strategic resource debate.
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Adam Parker
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I’ve also asked Mark the following question (on Consim) about capturing issues since the answer I posted earlier and deleted!


Capturing an Issue

Rule 5.23: When a player moves an issue into his chair to capture it, at what point does the debate begin:

1. Before the issue is moved at all (i.e.: it starts on the 3 space of a player’s track and he plans to play a 5 card - does it stay on the 3 for the debate)?

2. Once the issue enters the 6th space of the advancing player’s track - but before it enters his chair? (i.e.: it starts on the 3 space of a player’s track and he plans to play a 5 card, does he move it to 6 and then stop for the debate)?


If anyone knows the definite answer before Mark can chime in, please tell!


There’s a clear example in 5.23 that answers this.
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Ben Rankin
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Steve Carey wrote:
MikeOberly wrote:
One that got me is the global abilities -- make sure you know what you can do, whether they are in Neutral, or to Advantage either side. Easy to miss on first playing.


Agreed Mike - not to mention they're worth 5 VP each (so a 10 VP swing if you snag a Global away from your opponent).


THIS ONE! The neutral positions are actually pretty restrictive for political alignment marker placement. None of the Eastern or Western front countries can be targets and none of the CBI colonies. That leaves only the Middle East and Persia and potentially Norway and Finland if the Arctic Front get 3 naval support.
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Larry Rice
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According to how we read the rules:

In 6.4 of the rulebook, current theater leadership places one offensive support token when one is using production tokens to place offensive support.

In 6.9 of the rulebook, theater leadership issues are then activated if they were on the conference table. Each theater leadership issue won gains that person 2 offensive support tokens. If the same person wins both leadership issue tokens, that person gains an additional 2 offensive support tokens.

So, theoretically, one could place 8 offensive support tokens if one was in command both before and after the theater command debates (assuming both were up for debate).
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Larry Rice
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Adam Parker wrote:
I’ve also asked Mark the following question (on Consim) about capturing issues since the answer I posted earlier and deleted!


Capturing an Issue

Rule 5.23: When a player moves an issue into his chair to capture it, at what point does the debate begin:

1. Before the issue is moved at all (i.e.: it starts on the 3 space of a player’s track and he plans to play a 5 card - does it stay on the 3 for the debate)?

2. Once the issue enters the 6th space of the advancing player’s track - but before it enters his chair? (i.e.: it starts on the 3 space of a player’s track and he plans to play a 5 card, does he move it to 6 and then stop for the debate)?

If anyone knows the definite answer before Mark can chime in, please tell!


When looking at the blue box below 5.23, does it matter? Nothing is captured unless after a debate it is still at the chair. The difference of the card plays must bring the issue back below the chair.

From the blue box text, it appears you can do whichever is easier for you - move the issue the difference of the two cards in the debate OR pretend the leader track extends as far as it needs to number wise and then subtract the debate card.
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Thomas Heaney
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Adam Parker wrote:
So a player could theoretically receive 8 support in a conference.

Note that the bots slightly change the priorities for where this support goes despite some of it being theater-specific for humans. To me this is a great simulation of the strategic resource debate.

Putting the Leadership issues on the table seems key to generating enough resources to defeat the Axis since relying on just Production markers isn't going to get the Allies to Berlin or Tokyo. Just keeping them in play generates 2 to 6 EXTRA OS or NS markers per turn regardless of who wins them, and they have to go somewhere on the road to victory, even if it the road to Rome or the road to Burma.
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Steve Carey
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larryjrice wrote:
So, theoretically, one could place 8 offensive support tokens if one was in command both before and after the theater command debates (assuming both were up for debate).


Hopefully Mark will chime in soon.

And just to clarify, it can be offensive support and/or naval support.
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Larry Rice
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Steve Carey wrote:
larryjrice wrote:
So, theoretically, one could place 8 offensive support tokens if one was in command both before and after the theater command debates (assuming both were up for debate).


Hopefully Mark will chime in soon.

And just to clarify, it can be offensive support and/or naval support.


Of course, I'm just lumping the two types of support together and probably shouldn't. What do you need Mark to clarify? 6.4 and 6.9 should probably not be considered together as they are two different parts of the phase. Simply put, each theater commander gains one offensive/naval support in 6.4. Then, whoever won the the theater leadership issue tokens gains 2 support for each token won with a bonus 2 points if the same person won both.
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This is a great thread btw.

larryjrice wrote:
Adam Parker wrote:
I’ve also asked Mark the following question (on Consim) about capturing issues since the answer I posted earlier and deleted!


Capturing an Issue

Rule 5.23: When a player moves an issue into his chair to capture it, at what point does the debate begin:

1. Before the issue is moved at all (i.e.: it starts on the 3 space of a player’s track and he plans to play a 5 card - does it stay on the 3 for the debate)?

2. Once the issue enters the 6th space of the advancing player’s track - but before it enters his chair? (i.e.: it starts on the 3 space of a player’s track and he plans to play a 5 card, does he move it to 6 and then stop for the debate)?

If anyone knows the definite answer before Mark can chime in, please tell!


When looking at the blue box below 5.23, does it matter? Nothing is captured unless after a debate it is still at the chair. The difference of the card plays must bring the issue back below the chair.

From the blue box text, it appears you can do whichever is easier for you - move the issue the difference of the two cards in the debate OR pretend the leader track extends as far as it needs to number wise and then subtract the debate card.


The only problem with that is that if the card differential is negative (i.e. in favour of the debating player) it will move further from the chair if the debate starts without the issue first being moved.

I think it’s why I feel option 2 is correct as the guys here have been suggesting.

Player A advances issue to his chair but stops at space 6 for Player B to debate. Rather than Player A wants to advance issue to chair and Player B yells out “stop!” right at the start.

Is that how everyone’s playing it?


Ignore this. See my last answer.
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Larry Rice
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Adam Parker wrote:
This is a great thread btw.

larryjrice wrote:
Adam Parker wrote:
I’ve also asked Mark the following question (on Consim) about capturing issues since the answer I posted earlier and deleted!


Capturing an Issue

Rule 5.23: When a player moves an issue into his chair to capture it, at what point does the debate begin:

1. Before the issue is moved at all (i.e.: it starts on the 3 space of a player’s track and he plans to play a 5 card - does it stay on the 3 for the debate)?

2. Once the issue enters the 6th space of the advancing player’s track - but before it enters his chair? (i.e.: it starts on the 3 space of a player’s track and he plans to play a 5 card, does he move it to 6 and then stop for the debate)?

If anyone knows the definite answer before Mark can chime in, please tell!


When looking at the blue box below 5.23, does it matter? Nothing is captured unless after a debate it is still at the chair. The difference of the card plays must bring the issue back below the chair.

From the blue box text, it appears you can do whichever is easier for you - move the issue the difference of the two cards in the debate OR pretend the leader track extends as far as it needs to number wise and then subtract the debate card.


The only problem with that is that if the card differential is negative (i.e. in favour of the debating player) it will move further from the chair if the debate starts without the issue first being moved.

I think it’s why I feel option 2 is correct as the guys here have been suggesting.

Player A advances issue to his chair but stops at space 6 for Player B to debate. Rather than Player A wants to advance issue to chair and Player B yells out “stop!” right at the start.

Is that how everyone’s playing it?


I don't think I know what you are asking. We simply compare the cards of the two players debating and move the issue token the number of spaces equal to the difference in favor of the person who has the higher value card. That's it.
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larryjrice wrote:
I don't think I know what you are asking. We simply compare the cards of the two players debating and move the issue token the number of spaces equal to the difference in favor of the person who has the higher value card. That's it.


Oh all I’m wondering is what space do you do this in? The #6 space on the advancing player’s track (i.e. just before he moves it further into his chair), or the space where the issue started (i.e. where he announces he’s planning to capture it)?

I think it’s the #6 space.


Clearly answered in rulebook - see my last response.
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Adam Parker wrote:
larryjrice wrote:
I don't think I know what you are asking. We simply compare the cards of the two players debating and move the issue token the number of spaces equal to the difference in favor of the person who has the higher value card. That's it.


Oh all I’m wondering is what space do you do this in? The #6 space on the advancing player’s track (i.e. just before he moves it further into his chair), or the space where the issue started (i.e. where he announces he’s planning to capture it)?

I think it’s the #6 space.


I still don't get your question. You have two movements: advancing (one way) and debating (the other way). Instead of moving it for the full range twice, you may move it by just the differential. It's the same thing, and of course you start from where the issue started if you do just the differential, you start from anywhere along the movement if you do the whole debating value as a seperate movement. The net result is the same (6-4 is always 2, it doesn't matter how you divide it up).

If the issue would advance into your chair before debating, you "virtually" extend the track. If it's still in your chair after debating, the debating player is stupid
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Steve Carey
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larryjrice wrote:
What do you need Mark to clarify?


I was thinking of this:

MarkHerman wrote:
Answer, the European and Pacific leadership issues. If the two players can conspire to have one of them win both that is 6 offensive support markers, equal to US production.


But I see now what you're saying, adding in the two theater Commands would equal 8 Support (if one player controlled everything).
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