Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

Cosmic Encounter» Forums » Rules

Subject: Loser Flare and Zombie compensation rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Homchuck
United States
Maine
flag msg tools
"Loser Flare" says "As a main player" is "a" main player both of those involved in an encouter or only "the" player who is attacking a planet? Trying to find out if Loser Flare can be played by defending player.

Zombie
A negotiating player get to collect compensation for each ship he or she lost to the warp, but Zombie never looses any ship to the warp, so do they ever get to collect any compensation?

What do you do with a flare card after you play it? Does it stay out, get discarded? Or if not when does it go back into your hand?

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Homer Simpson
Israel
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The term "Main player" refers to both Offense and Defense.

Zombie doesn't gain compensation, but many people play that he does.

A flare returns to the player's hand after its effect is resolved.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mi Myma
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Most of the people I know and have played with say that Zombie should get compensation. Or to be more precise - any player who loses with a Negotiate gets compensation for each ship he had in the encounter.

If Zombie can't get compensation, it becomes one of the weakest powers in the game.

We've had lots of discussions on this topic. If the Zombie can't get compensation, then neither can the opponent of the Void or Fungus - because their ships don't go to the warp, either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Reda
United States
Herndon
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Guess the games in my uberbadge!
badge
My favorite game is Cosmic Encounter.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's really no logic to getting compensation for every ship you had in the encounter. It should be based on every ship you LOST in the encounter, and since Zombie doesn't lose any, it kind of makes sense.

I wouldn't give compensation to opponents of Void or Fungus either, but having compensation rooted in ships LOST rather than PRESENT still makes better sense. "Fair" shouldn't ever enter into the equation.

I've won many games with Zombie, so I for one don't subscribe to the whole "it's too weak if it can't get compensation" argument.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Burns
United States
Troy
MI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I still don't like the "Zombie doesn't get Compensation" rule (which is from designer Peter Olotka more than it is from FFG), because Jack Kittredge (one of the OTHER designers) ruled in an old Encounter magazine that Zombie DID get Compensation (consolation, it was called then).

That said, Jack makes the best argument possible for it here.

Because I have a FFG set, I play that Zombie doesn't get Compensation, because I don't want to (myself) go down the slippery slope of house-ruling components. (I do ignore the FAQ though.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mi Myma
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Eh? Jack didn't really make an argument at all, not that he needed to. All he said was "there's no logic" in the Zombie getting compensation. But this game isn't about logic. To follow that as an argument, you'd have to say that the opponent of the Void or Fungus *does* get compensation, because the ships are "lost" even though they aren't lost to the warp. But this is inconsistent with the rules.

And if the Zombie is the defensive player, he is losing a home colony - so he has "lost" something important. He has lost his ships to other locations.

And the opponent of the Bully might not even lose *any* of the ships that were in the encounter, so does he not get any compensation either? Now you might say that he still gets compensation for the ships lost that weren't in the encounter, but then what about the opponent of the Vacuum? Does he get extra compensation for the ships he loses that weren't in the encounter?

There is far less consistency in saying the Zombie doesn't get compensation.

Re: Fairness - you can say that is doesn't matter if there's a power that's significantly weaker than all the others, but as a general rule, people don't want to play a game if they're at an inherent disadvantage relative to all the other players because of an imbalance in the game. The result is that the Zombie just stays in the box and doesn't get played - except by people who want to prove that the Zombie can still win occasionally, despite its weakness.

It's certainly true you can win with the Zombie without compensation, but that doesn't really tell us much. You can win with the Locust or the Grumpus too, but that doesn't mean they're good powers. You can win by being an ally and riding other peoples' powers to victory, but then you aren't really having much of an impact on the game. And that's no fun. It basically means that the game would have been exactly the same without you.

(I really didn't mean to start up this discussion again.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, yes, yes ... good points on all sides. However.

The Warp wrote:
There's really no logic to getting compensation for every ship you had in the encounter. It should be based on every ship you LOST in the encounter

Jack Kittredge doesn't actually disagree with what you said here (LOST is an important trigger), but there's another part to his interpretation that sometimes gets glossed over. Here's the core of one of his rulings, in Encounter Magazine Vol. 1 No. 4, page 16:

from Bob Trezise, Nashville, TN:
1. ... BUT the Zombie does not lose tokens so do
this mean he does not get consolation?
1) The Zombie does get consolation since he lost
the tokens. He just didn't send them to the warp.


This is what I follow. The ships were indeed "losing ships" (that's essential) and they were indeed "lost from the encounter" (they did not land or remain on the planet but where forced to leave) ... but when they left the encounter they just went someplace other than the warp. But those ships still "lost" in every sense of the word, and "were lost" in every sense except their final destination was different than the usual one.

If we're going to be specific that the ships must be lost and physically go to the warp, does that mean every time Void sends your losing ships out of the game you don't get compensation? Fungus? Black Hole? Remote? ...

Basically I'm saying, what's the important trigger here? That your ships specifically went to the warp, or that they were lost from the encounter? And, does having lots of ways for compensation to get scuttled make the game better, or worse?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mi Myma
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bill Martinson wrote:
If we're going to be specific that the ships must be lost and physically go to the warp, does that mean every time Void sends your losing ships out of the game you don't get compensation? Fungus? Black Hole? Remote? ...

And as mentioned on another thread that came up recently, the Horde's horde tokens?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dapperghast Meowregard
United States
Eagan
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Phil Fleischmann wrote:

We've had lots of discussions on this topic. If the Zombie can't get compensation, then neither can the opponent of the Void or Fungus - because their ships don't go to the warp, either.


Well yeah, I believe Void is the standard complement to Zombie inthis discussion (The common point is that making Zombie better makes Void worse and vice versa).

Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Bill Martinson wrote:
If we're going to be specific that the ships must be lost and physically go to the warp, does that mean every time Void sends your losing ships out of the game you don't get compensation? Fungus? Black Hole? Remote? ...

And as mentioned on another thread that came up recently, the Horde's horde tokens?

I'm pretty sure that still works, it says "Discard if sent to the warp" so they hit the warp, then immediately stop existing (incidentally another example of why Magic's rules are a handy point of comparison to use when in doubt)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mi Myma
United States
Fountain Valley
California
flag msg tools
Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
badge
There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dapperghast wrote:
Phil Fleischmann wrote:

We've had lots of discussions on this topic. If the Zombie can't get compensation, then neither can the opponent of the Void or Fungus - because their ships don't go to the warp, either.


Well yeah, I believe Void is the standard complement to Zombie inthis discussion (The common point is that making Zombie better makes Void worse and vice versa).

I guess, but it's not much worse, since the Void would have actually won the encounter. It's more like, if Zombie never gets compensation, then Void and Fungus never give compensation.

Quote:
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Bill Martinson wrote:
If we're going to be specific that the ships must be lost and physically go to the warp, does that mean every time Void sends your losing ships out of the game you don't get compensation? Fungus? Black Hole? Remote? ...

And as mentioned on another thread that came up recently, the Horde's horde tokens?

I'm pretty sure that still works, it says "Discard if sent to the warp" so they hit the warp, then immediately stop existing

That's a rather lame quibble. The real result is that the Horde ships don't end up in the warp. If the Zombie said, "When you lose ships to the warp, immediately return them to your colonies," it would make no difference. If some other game element said, "put the losing ships to the side for five seconds, and then put them in the warp" would that mean they don't get compensation?

Quote:
(incidentally another example of why Magic's rules are a handy point of comparison to use when in doubt)

WRONG! Why Magic's rules? Why not Monopoly? Or Candyland? Or The Campaign for North Africa?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh Hay
United States
Owensboro
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, does Zombie get Compensation?


Quote:
(incidentally another example of why Magic's rules are a handy point of comparison to use when in doubt)


That seems to be a bit of a touchy subject here, and I think for good reason. I don't know that there's really any good reason to do so. Cosmic technically came first, so why not instead ignore Magic's super-specific rules and just play Magic where you resolve apparent inconsistencies where you see fit and then argue about it on a forum like people tend to do with this one? Also they are very different games, and I don't feel like learning Magic's tournament rules to apply them to something else entirely just to satiate a potential rules-lawyering Magic player I might encounter (heh). Magic players have the strangest obsession with applying its rules for resolution to everything.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Warp wrote:
I've won many games with Zombie, so I for one don't subscribe to the whole "it's too weak if it can't get compensation" argument.


Zombie can also get cards -- four of 'em -- as the defensive ally. Useful for the "Own the Deck" strategy!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Warp wrote:
I've won many games with Zombie, so I for one don't subscribe to the whole "it's too weak if it can't get compensation" argument.

And it's entirely possible to win the game with no power at all; that's not the issue here. Nobody is trying to meticulously measure alien abilities and make them all mathematically equal.

The issue is, what makes for good design? What is fun to play? What pays respect to the original core game? The Eon/Kittredge interpretation of Zombie is good design and (reasonably) fun to play. The FFG interpretation of Zombie is weaker design and less fun to play.

If somebody wants to make a solid argument that removing compensation from Zombie actually made it a better design and more fun, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I'd have to say the change has in some small measure diminished Cosmic Encounter, not improved it. And tarnished the appeal of a quintessential, high-profile, original core alien.

That's why people keep griping about it. The fact that you can win the game with a weak power, a bad power, no power at all, or even an anti-power, is a strength of Cosmic Encounter, but it doesn't change the fact that the Zombie change is a negative change.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emmanuel Dario Fernandez Arcidiacono
Argentina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Ok, so by the standard (old? ) interpretation, Zombie and Void opponents get compensation, am I understanding it correctly? Working within that frame... is there ANY case where someone would not get compensation?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Monk74 wrote:
Ok, so by the standard (old? ) interpretation, Zombie and Void opponents get compensation, am I understanding it correctly?

Right.

Monk74 wrote:
Working within that frame... is there ANY case where someone would not get compensation?

Sure ... barring any Cosmic Zaps, Pacifist doesn't get compensation because he can't lose the encounter with a Negotiate, and Warhawk doesn't because his Negotiate turns into an Attack 00 or a Morph. Anything that dismisses ships from an encounter before they can be sent to the warp as losing ships in the resolution phase would also do the trick (I think there might be a couple of flares that do this). And of course some cards explicitly state that compensation is denied, such as Ionic Gas, Negotiate (Self Defense), and Kicker x1 (Self Destruct).

(Though it's off topic, I'll also note that taking compensation from Hacker can sometimes be worse than no compensation at all, because he gets to choose the cards you get.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.