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Subject: Hybrid setting rss

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C.E. Allen
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I just have to say that I am not a fan of the copy/paste job FF has done to the Runebound setting. The lore was all hunky-dory until Mr. Konieczka got his hands on it and decided to somehow smash it into the venerable BattleMist setting. These two worlds (Mennarra and Terrinoth) were never meant to be one and the same. Not only that, they took my single favorite faction ever, the barbarians, and turned them into warhammer chaos clones in everything post RuneWars. I love the original and 2nd ed. RuneBound games, as well as the original Battlemist (including the diskwars spinoff), but all the latter hybrids are just meh. To me, they have lost their heart and soul. Now they have done the same to BattleLore and DungeonQuest, trying to force these into their frankenstien creation. As an uber-fan of the original Fantasy Flight games (when still fully helmed by the great Christian T Petersen), I will not be buying any more of the Terrinoth related games until it recovers from its schizophrenia. I know I am probably a singular minority here, but feel very strongly about this.
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Frank Franco
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Yeah it's funny. Despite being very lore light Terrinoth had a unique flavor (never played battlemist so no idea on that one) but somewhere along the line it seems to have lost it and become just a generic fantasy setting. For me I think that happened around Descent 2nd edition.
Of course many people thought it was very generic to begin with.
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C.E. Allen
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I think the reason you feel this way is that the original and 2nd Ed. of RuneBound and Descent 1st Ed.are the only TRUE Terrinoth setting titles. In 2010 the dice-hating game designer Corey Konieczka tried to reimplement BattleMist (the fantasy spinoff of TI) as Runewars, but instead of staying true to the original, crammed the settings together, saying that Mennarra was the supposedly lost history of Terrinoth, a name that first shows up (as far as I can tell) with the Mists of Zanaga expansion for RuneBound. Up to this point, the settings have no connection, as can be seen by comparing the map tiles from BattleMist to the maps of RuneBound and its expansions. All of a sudden we have two very different settings colliding into a hodgepodge of fantasy tropes. Even when trying to decipher the spotted history through ancillary products, it is obvious that there are some huge gaps in the lore, with many downright contradictions. Might not be as bothersome to some, but as huge RPG geek, I love me some setting data, and all this has just turned into one big mess as far as I'm concerned.

Edit: The word Terrinoth appears once in the flavor text of Sands of Al-Kalim. I think this is the fist time the world of Runebound is named.
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ian short
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Terrinoth is the continent and mennarra is the world. At least I think that's what was said around the release of 2nd edition.
 
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C.E. Allen
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I think the defunct document you are referring to was the history of Terrinoth that was posted on the FF website sometime before the release of RuneWars, not RuneBound 2nd Ed. As I stated earlier, the name Terrinoth does not even appear on the first crop of RuneBound titles. As of 2007 the name is used for the RuneBound world. Also, as for the continent argument, it is obviously the same area as we have the Daqan Lords, Uthuk Y’llan (gasp!), Dunwarr Dwarves, etc. who are all present. NONE of these appear in the original or 2nd Ed. Runbound titles until after the release of RuneWars, until then, they are all exclusive to the BattleMist/Diskwars universe. Also, if one follows the ever-shifting saga of the Runes (first stars of Timmoran then Dragon Runes), they are also supposed to be one and the same. For whatever reason, Corey Konieczka morphed the settings, probably to flesh-out the thin Terrinoth setting, as Mr Skeletor previously posted.
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C.E. Allen
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Ok, here is some direct evidence that illustrates my point; in the Runewars manual, it plainly states that the stars of Timmorran became Dragon Runes 1000 years previous, but the Rune Apprentices from Runebound are said to have been using the runes for more than 6000 years. Come on guys, if you are going to lazily slap two settings together, at least TRY to do so without the glaring contradictions.
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Sean D.
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Orion Star God wrote:
Ok, here is some direct evidence that illustrates my point; in the Runewars manual, it plainly states that the stars of Timmorran became Dragon Runes 1000 years previous, but the Rune Apprentices from Runebound are said to have been using the runes for more than 6000 years. Come on guys, if you are going to lazily slap two settings together, at least TRY to do so without the glaring contradictions.


AFAIK, there are different kinds of Runes besides Dragon Runes, don't know if they messed up the lore or just didn't clarify that the Dragon Runes are different than other Runes that existed prior to them.
 
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Thomas King
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Orion Star God wrote:
Ok, here is some direct evidence that illustrates my point; in the Runewars manual, it plainly states that the stars of Timmorran became Dragon Runes 1000 years previous, but the Rune Apprentices from Runebound are said to have been using the runes for more than 6000 years. Come on guys, if you are going to lazily slap two settings together, at least TRY to do so without the glaring contradictions.

Stars of Timmoran is where rune magic came from, if I remember correctly. They are many thousands of years old. Dragon runes come from those, and are only about 1000 years old. It's not a contradiction.
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C.E. Allen
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Montag451 wrote:
Orion Star God wrote:
Ok, here is some direct evidence that illustrates my point; in the Runewars manual, it plainly states that the stars of Timmorran became Dragon Runes 1000 years previous, but the Rune Apprentices from Runebound are said to have been using the runes for more than 6000 years. Come on guys, if you are going to lazily slap two settings together, at least TRY to do so without the glaring contradictions.

Stars of Timmoran is where rune magic came from, if I remember correctly. They are many thousands of years old. Dragon runes come from those, and are only about 1000 years old. It's not a contradiction.


As I have stated previously, there was originally NO connection between the Battlemist/Diskwars line and Runebound. Everything after 2010 merged the settings. If one takes the time to read the flavor text in the Runewars rule book, it puts the Timmorran event (well, a mangled retelling of the events of Battlemist, where the mage Timmorran is from) at 1000 years before now. Corey Konieczka rewrote the saga of Timmorran to fit this new timeline. There is absolutely no connection with anything Battlemist and runes. Zip, nada, none. After squeezing as much life out of the original Runebound figures as possible, they merged them into Runewars, which is the reissue of battlemist. Now the two are considered one, but I assure you, before Mr Konieczka got his hands on the whole thing, the two were completely seperate IPs conceived by different authors.

If you don't believe me, just look through any Runebound product released before 2010. You will see that there are none of the Mannarra factions present, just generic fantasy archetypes. After Runewars, its a fantasy free for all. Not going to argue this anymore because its pretty self evident.
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Thomas King
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I don't know why you're pointing fingers at Corey. It's not like he would have done this without any consent from his boss (the designer of Battlemist). Was he even in charge of writing the new fluff text?
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C.E. Allen
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Well, i am pointing fingers because the guy is a hack. Most of his designs are copies of other people's work. If you follow the development diaries from Runewars, you will see that it was "Corey", as you state so intimately, that decided what was good/usable from the vintage game. Anyway, i am not saying anyone else shouldn't gush over his reworking of old games (Dune to Rex, Battlemist to Runewars, Fortune and Glory to Eldritch Horror, every other deck builder to RuneAge, Doom/Descent to Imperial Assault, etc.), but i prefer either new material, or someone who doesn't have a grudge against dice.
 
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that Matt
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Orion Star God wrote:
Well, i am pointing fingers because the guy is a hack. Most of his designs are copies of other people's work. If you follow the development diaries from Runewars, you will see that it was "Corey", as you state so intimately, that decided what was good/usable from the vintage game. Anyway, i am not saying anyone else shouldn't gush over his reworking of old games (Dune to Rex, Battlemist to Runewars, Fortune and Glory to Eldritch Horror, every other deck builder to RuneAge, Doom/Descent to Imperial Assault, etc.), but i prefer either new material, or someone who doesn't have a grudge against dice.

Yes, clearly he is the one with a grudge.
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C.E. Allen
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tumorous wrote:
Orion Star God wrote:
Well, i am pointing fingers because the guy is a hack. Most of his designs are copies of other people's work. If you follow the development diaries from Runewars, you will see that it was "Corey", as you state so intimately, that decided what was good/usable from the vintage game. Anyway, i am not saying anyone else shouldn't gush over his reworking of old games (Dune to Rex, Battlemist to Runewars, Fortune and Glory to Eldritch Horror, every other deck builder to RuneAge, Doom/Descent to Imperial Assault, etc.), but i prefer either new material, or someone who doesn't have a grudge against dice.

Yes, clearly he is the one with a grudge.


Pretty Clever there, Matt. I never claimed not to have a grudge. Hell, I HATE what FF has become. They have gone from my favorite game company to a parody of their former glory. Now, instead of innovating, they just release infinite rehashes with an unending string of expansions, mini expansions,and promos to suck every last dollar from their customers.
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Thomas King
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Some one sure has a hell of an axe to grind.
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Sean Shaw
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I can understand some of the unhappiness with what FFG has become. (TLDR is at end if you don't want to read wall of text).

As was pointed out to me in another thread, and something that I should take into consideration, it IS Petersen's world.

Of course, the bigger question is if he doesn't respect or care for the rules of his own games, should anyone else? Should anyone else invest their time into your game if you are simply going to not care about it yourself?

However, in regards to Corey, I have to say I like some of the stuff he's done a lot, and some of the stuff he's done not a whole lot.

I wouldn't put the blame on him to such a degree that what FFG has become is all on him. I wouldn't hold him blameless at all, but I wouldn't say the entire change has been on him.

FFG seems to have gone through phases. The first phase was original just a struggle to survive. In it you see games with components that aren't quite what one might want, and other items that show that they were a starting company.

You see TI come out in these years. In between this time and then into their better years you see Thunder road and Battlemist also come out. Later, as they start to get a better footing, you see TI2 come out. In these years they appealed a LOT to the AT gamers. You also see other things like Diskwars, and other such things come out.

They then start to get really big, and release some of their classic games such as Descent, Runebound, Twilight Imperium 3e, War of the Ring (in US at least), and MANY AT games that are loved by many.

They had some great designers to work on these, Wallace, Wilson, and even Petersen himself. I'd say this period went on for a while and includes games like Warcraft, World of Warcraft (these are the boardgames, not the PC games), and even into the period to where you see Corey come on board.

However, you start to see changes in the approach around 2008. I'm not sure what happened here, but you start to see indications where they go for more experimental, and sometimes antagonistic towards AT gamers, in their games.

They always had some Euro elements (they put out many a Euro as well, such as Through the Desert, Drakon, and others, normally with LOTs of plastic still).

They started to show a disregard for earlier game designs and to try to "improve" things, or at least change them up.

I'm not sure why or how this happened, whether it was so they didn't have to pay royalties to earlier designers, or if it was simply that they didn't really care for their earlier ideas (and if an artist doesn't care for their ideas, why should anyone else care...), or if it was something else like money.

My bet is the money. There have been fans that have supported them for years, and these are perhaps the ones that will raise the loudest voices as FFG attempts to appeal to a wider crowd. As FFG has gotten bigger, they have ideas on how to have greater appeal towards larger groups. In someways I feel this has backfired (seeing how long they had tried to sell Horus Heresy at rock bottom prices, I'd imagine that was one that was overprinted in hopes to appeal to the WH40K crowd. I tried to warn them that the card combat and other aspects probably were NOT something that would appeal to the WH40K crowd in a battle game like HH was, but I think it took lower sales than expected to reinforce that into their design conscience). In other ways, it's turned out good for their bottom line (I think Descent 2e is doing excellent, and the repurposed dice system from their WHFantasy 3e into their Star Wars system seems to be selling like hotcakes).

I think as they've grown bigger and bigger, it's the money aspect that's changed them more than anything else. It's the drive for profits over a pure love of gaming which they used to have. It's why you see FFG becoming more of a collectibles company (previously they focused more on imports from Europe and their own Boardgames and RPG lines...now it's more items which drive sales like LCGs). Instead of as many standalone boardgames, or European Imports (like War of the Ring), you see a LOT of LCG's, and now miniature games.

It's not a bad thing, but it IS a refocus on a different audience than those that made them originally. Sometimes companies abandon those that make them (though I wouldn't say FFG has completely abandoned them, as they have come out with some rather stellar AT stuff lately anyways, though they are severely lacking on the Euro front from what I've seen recently).

Companies change and evolve.

I think in regards to Runebound and Runewars, you may be right, that the integration was basically in Runewars. It could be that they were already connected in some way in Petersen's mind, and that the Runebound world was in some way descended from his original ideas. I don't know (he would, you could ask him if you could get a hold of him, he used to frequent BGG a LOT...though I haven't seen him so much in recent times).

Changing the game up isn't a new thing for him either (TI, to TI2e, to TI3e) with different rules...though changing them so DRASTICALLY (Descent 1e to Descent 2e and RB 2e to RB3e) is more of a new thing.

I personally can't say what is actually affecting FFG in how it deals with games and items, but if I had to guess, I'd guess it deals with money, profits, and who they are now trying to appeal to in some games.

I know with my personal tastes, FFG normally does abysmal on Card combat in it's boardgames (not LCG's though) when it's not the whole game itself. I don't mind card combat in games, but the way FFG has done them, it normally doesn't have the depth to it that makes it interesting to me. Maybe it's because if cards are involved I like something with more depth to it (like the card dynamics in many of GMT's games), and FFG just doesn't touch that itch with it's card dynamics. In that light, I'd prefer dice to their card dynamics, but that is a PERSONAL taste...many others like the card dynamics.

Once again, in regards to Corey, there are many things that he's done that I don't like, but there are ALSO many things he's been involved with which I find brilliant (Battlestar Galactica, Eldritch Horror, Forbidden Stars, Gears of War, Mansions of Madness, Space Hulk: Death Angel, World of Warcraft the Adventure game, amongst others). Overall, though he does utilize card combat (which I normally don't really care for in some of his games) he does utilize dice a LOT in many of his game designs.

TLDR; FFG evolved over time and has changed to more of a collectibles company (LCG's, Minis) than boardgames, RPG's and Euros like it used to be. It's catering to different audiences now than those that it originally catered to. Corey has made many dice games so I wouldn't blame him entirely for the evolution or changes of FFG's games.
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Chris J Davis
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Or maybe it's because they just want to advance game design principles.
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that Matt
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GreyLord wrote:
They started to show a disregard for earlier game designs and to try to "improve" things, or at least change them up.

I'm not sure why or how this happened, whether it was so they didn't have to pay royalties to earlier designers, or if it was simply that they didn't really care for their earlier ideas (and if an artist doesn't care for their ideas, why should anyone else care...), or if it was something else like money.

Many artists change their ideas and their styles in pursuit of art -- even to the point of alienating earlier audiences. That certainly doesn't mean that they are doing it for the money. Some are content to produce variations on a theme for an entire career. Others are trying to explore and expand beyond what they feel is in their past. But I can't claim to know enough about FFG to really judge the claim that they sold out.
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Sean Shaw
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tumorous wrote:
GreyLord wrote:
They started to show a disregard for earlier game designs and to try to "improve" things, or at least change them up.

I'm not sure why or how this happened, whether it was so they didn't have to pay royalties to earlier designers, or if it was simply that they didn't really care for their earlier ideas (and if an artist doesn't care for their ideas, why should anyone else care...), or if it was something else like money.

Many artists change their ideas and their styles in pursuit of art -- even to the point of alienating earlier audiences. That certainly doesn't mean that they are doing it for the money. Some are content to produce variations on a theme for an entire career. Others are trying to explore and expand beyond what they feel is in their past. But I can't claim to know enough about FFG to really judge the claim that they sold out.


I never said they sold out, simply that they changed to cater to different audiences.

(TLDR at the end of my post above is probably the best summary). This means that they abandon many that may have made them in the first place, but is not saying they sold out by any means (these are two separate things).

I will say money is a primary driving force behind it, however. I think the prime indicator of this is seeing where their focus lies these days. Most of FFG's outputs these days are in regards to their LCG's and miniature lines.

That's not necessarily a bad thing (without money, FFG wouldn't even exist), and they are on better footing because of it than they were in the early days (when who knew if they would even be around the next month). What it does mean, is that their focus as a company has changed.

Companies change and evolve.


Added: A good example would be Apple. Apple's main product is no longer the Apple IIE, or computers in general, but instead is the Iphone and other items like it. They have changed their focus and direction. The audience is completely different (though there is obviously some cross interests in audiences) than it was originally. This is a good example of changing and evolving.
 
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that Matt
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Your thrust throughout is that they have turned away from their old fans to pursue larger audiences and money. You repeatedly make that point in different ways... you can say that's not "selling out," but I'm reasonably sure they're identical. You soft-pedal it with a shrug and say that things change. Still.
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Sean Shaw
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tumorous wrote:
Your thrust throughout is that they have turned away from their old fans to pursue larger audiences and money. You repeatedly make that point in different ways... you can say that's not "selling out," but I'm reasonably sure they're identical. You soft-pedal it with a shrug and say that things change. Still.


They HAVE turned away from old fans to pursue larger audiences and money. That's not selling out. What, did you guys blazon a BIG A on my forehead because you guys want to push hate on me or something.

What it is, is change and evolving. You may not like that, but that's what has happened.

If that's selling out, it's the same thing that's happened with Apple, Microsoft, Walmart, Delta and other Airlines, and a whole slew of other companies.

YES, it IS about money. Most business is. If you think FFG (well, actually, they used to really BE hardcore about games, and it was a major passion of Petersens, which was one of the big reasons he was behind the FFG) isn't about money now, maybe you missed that they've switched their business model more towards LCGs, miniatures, and even joined with Asmodee. Even in the past it was a major focus, simply because they were trying to survive. NOW, in many ways, I see it as a pushing drive behind many of their marketing decisions (Cards like CCGs and LCGs are the major money makers, as are miniatures in this hobby market, and make a TON more than most boardgames...a major reason why I see FFG's business model focusing on this arena these days). They have become a much bigger player and producer in the miniature market, and one of the main competitors of other miniature makers. They also are perhaps the biggest card game producers behind WotC (who have MtG) as far as packets of cards you buy in conjunction with games.

Of course, if it's YOUR OPINION, that focusing on the take in of money is selling out, the you are free to it, but please, don't try to paint things on me that I did NOT say.

You are free to share your opinions, but admit they are YOUR opinions on the matter and leave me out of your opinions.

I explained about the change in FFG, and in addition was defending Corey from the accusations leveled against him.

I haven't been the most favorable towards some of the decisions on this game, but I felt the statements towards Corey were placing waaay too much blame on his shoulders. I do not share the sentiment that Corey is to blame for the refocus of FFG (but I WILL admit that there IS a refocus that has happened). As evidence, in my prior post I pointed towards many games he's designed which have plenty of dice in them and in many ways are brilliant AT designed games.

I'm still an avid FFG gamer in many ways, but that's because in many ways my interests were not simply towards the old games that they made over a decade ago. If you don't like my analysis of what has happened and what they've refocused on, you are welcome to share your opinions, but trying to tear down others simply because you like to badmouth them or something (I don't know exactly what you are trying to do here by trying to force your opinion and say it's mine), is at least not appreciated by me.

Once again, you can share your own opinions, but don't try to say I said something I did not.
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Chris J Davis
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GreyLord wrote:


You are free to share your opinions, but admit they are YOUR opinions on the matter and leave me out of your opinions.



This made me laugh.
 
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