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Subject: Non-Infinite Loop + Time Walk rss

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Alfred Spangler
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Non-Infinite Loop (from the Geeks deck) has this ability: "Choose an action from your hand. Play it as an extra action, then you may put it back into your hand instead of the discard pile."

Does that last part prevent it from being used with Time Walk (Time Travellers) since it's supposed to go to the bottom of one's discard after play? The rules about conflicting cards only say that the card that says you can't do something trumps the one that says you can. Neither of these cards have can't in them, so...?

For reference, Time Walk reads: "You may play an extra minion and an extra action this turn. Draw 2 cards. Place this card on the bottom of your deck instead of your discard pile."
 
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Ruben de Kemp
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Ahhh, another "nested card" problem.

Honestly, this may fall into the realm of "simultaneous actions", whereby the rules state you get to pick the order of resolution. Without being an authority myself, I would be inclined to say that you still get to return the card to your hand. My rationale here is that it is consistent with the spirit of the card, that whatever action you ultimately play can be returned to your hand immediately (if it makes sense for the action).
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Charles Riggs
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They way we played this, was that you can't place it back in your hand. Since you first need to play the action and execute everything it says. And then place it on the bottom of your deck. If the action was discarded to the discard pale then we would have allowed it. But maybe we played this wrong. I'd like to hear other people opinions about this
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Daniel Matteo
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Rixino wrote:
They way we played this, was that you can't place it back in your hand. Since you first need to play the action and execute everything it says. And then place it on the bottom of your deck. If the action was discarded to the discard pale then we would have allowed it. But maybe we played this wrong. I'd like to hear other people opinions about this


This is exactly how I would rule it personally. You need to do everything the card says, including putting it to the bottom of your deck. And since Non-Infinite Loop only gets things back from the discard pile, I say Time Walk goes to the bottom of your deck.
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Marc Bennett
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CNightmare072 wrote:
Rixino wrote:
They way we played this, was that you can't place it back in your hand. Since you first need to play the action and execute everything it says. And then place it on the bottom of your deck. If the action was discarded to the discard pale then we would have allowed it. But maybe we played this wrong. I'd like to hear other people opinions about this


This is exactly how I would rule it personally. You need to do everything the card says, including putting it to the bottom of your deck. And since Non-Infinite Loop only gets things back from the discard pile, I say Time Walk goes to the bottom of your deck.


I disagree on the basis that the card is never in your discard pile (or bottom of the deck) the card doesn't say after discarding the action return it to your hand it says instead of discarding.

I agree with the ruling that it falls under simultaneous actions and you get to choose which happens.

just my take on things of course.
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Wim D
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Klaxas wrote:
CNightmare072 wrote:
Rixino wrote:
They way we played this, was that you can't place it back in your hand. Since you first need to play the action and execute everything it says. And then place it on the bottom of your deck. If the action was discarded to the discard pale then we would have allowed it. But maybe we played this wrong. I'd like to hear other people opinions about this


This is exactly how I would rule it personally. You need to do everything the card says, including putting it to the bottom of your deck. And since Non-Infinite Loop only gets things back from the discard pile, I say Time Walk goes to the bottom of your deck.


I disagree on the basis that the card is never in your discard pile (or bottom of the deck) the card doesn't say after discarding the action return it to your hand it says instead of discarding.

I agree with the ruling that it falls under simultaneous actions and you get to choose which happens.

just my take on things of course.


How would you rule Non-infinite loop with other actions that don't go to your discard pile, like play on base and play on minion actions, or the recently previewed elves card "Trade"?

You need to have a "going to the discard pile after being played" effect to replace by the "put into your hand instead" effect. If you don't have one, you cannot replace it by something else.
Actions that linger in play, or actions that go somewhere else, will not be returned to your hand by non-infinite loop.

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Marc Bennett
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quit and nuts wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
CNightmare072 wrote:
Rixino wrote:
They way we played this, was that you can't place it back in your hand. Since you first need to play the action and execute everything it says. And then place it on the bottom of your deck. If the action was discarded to the discard pale then we would have allowed it. But maybe we played this wrong. I'd like to hear other people opinions about this


This is exactly how I would rule it personally. You need to do everything the card says, including putting it to the bottom of your deck. And since Non-Infinite Loop only gets things back from the discard pile, I say Time Walk goes to the bottom of your deck.


I disagree on the basis that the card is never in your discard pile (or bottom of the deck) the card doesn't say after discarding the action return it to your hand it says instead of discarding.

I agree with the ruling that it falls under simultaneous actions and you get to choose which happens.

just my take on things of course.


How would you rule Non-infinite loop with other actions that don't go to your discard pile, like play on base and play on minion actions, or the recently previewed elves card "Trade"?

You need to have a "going to the discard pile after being played" effect to replace by the "put into your hand instead" effect. If you don't have one, you cannot replace it by something else.
Actions that linger in play, or actions that go somewhere else, will not be returned to your hand by non-infinite loop.



there is a difference between "goes to bottom of deck instead of the discard pile" actions and "play on a minion" or "play on a base" actions. let me illustrate.

normal resolution
Play Card
Do Stuff
Discard pile

Play on X resolution
Play card
Choose Target
Card placed with Target-does stuff

bottom of deck resolution
Play Card
Do Stuff
Discard replaced with return to bottom of deck

non infinite loop resolution
Play Card
Do Stuff
Discard replaced with return to hand

bottom of deck and non infinite loop
Play card
Do Stuff
Discard replaced with return to hand
Discard replaced with bottom of deck

you can only replace the discard once and since you have 2 effects competing for the same trigger the player whos turn it is chooses. again this is just my take, feel free to play however you like.
 
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Wim D
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Klaxas wrote:

non infinite loop resolution
Play Card
Do Stuff
Discard replaced with return to hand


I disagree with this somewhat.

Let me explain:
non infinite loop resolution
Play Card (the loop)
Do Stuff - more precisely play another card from your hand. This is:
---Play card (time walk)
---Do stuff
---Discard replaced with return to bottom of deck
Do more stuff - more precisely replace discard of time walk with put in hand - however, nothing to replace
Discard the loop


Replace for me, means do X instead of Y. If you wouldn't do Y (because not allowed, already replaced by something else, …), you don't get to do X either.
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Marc Bennett
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quit and nuts wrote:
Klaxas wrote:

non infinite loop resolution
Play Card
Do Stuff
Discard replaced with return to hand


I disagree with this somewhat.

Let me explain:
non infinite loop resolution
Play Card (the loop)
Do Stuff - more precisely play another card from your hand. This is:
---Play card (time walk)
---Do stuff
---Discard replaced with return to bottom of deck
Do more stuff - more precisely replace discard of time walk with put in hand - however, nothing to replace
Discard the loop


Replace for me, means do X instead of Y. If you wouldn't do Y (because not allowed, already replaced by something else, …), you don't get to do X either.


ok I see where your coming from but if you take out the nesting, then you still have 2 replace effects happening at the same time.
 
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Alfred Spangler
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Haha, I love how complex the discussion can get!

Well, since there doesn't seem to be much of a consensus, I'm going to go with it CAN be done, because that's more fun.

Thanks guys!
 
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Wim D
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Even if you take out the nesting:
Time walk instructs you to place the card on the bottom of your deck.

Time Walk - You may play an extra minion and an extra action this turn. Draw 2 cards. Place this card on the bottom of your deck instead of your discard pile.

There is no issue when you cannot do all what a card says, but you should do as much as you can when you play a card.
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Marc Bennett
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quit and nuts wrote:
Even if you take out the nesting:
Time walk instructs you to place the card on the bottom of your deck.

Time Walk - You may play an extra minion and an extra action this turn. Draw 2 cards. Place this card on the bottom of your deck instead of your discard pile.

There is no issue when you cannot do all what a card says, but you should do as much as you can when you play a card.

as I said you have 2 effects both competing for the same trigger. they both resolve their effect "instead of your discard pile" so I used the simultaneous rule to resolve it.

its clear we wont change each others mind short of an official FAQ on this interaction. I do understand where your coming from, I just handled the case differently. since we have started repeating ourselves I think this would be a good time to end the discussion.
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M. B. Downey
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So outside an official ruling, I think a good way to look at this is by looking at similar situations that HAVE official rulings.

So let's look at Leprechaun:

Leprechaun wrote:
Ongoing: after another player plays a minion with less power than this one destroy it (resolve its ability first)


So we have an example of the so-called "nested effect" - cards interrupting each other.

So I play a minion, say a Microbot Alpha, whose power of 1 is less than the Leprechaun's power of 5. The Leprechaun's ongoing ability triggers and interrupts the play, saying to destroy the card, but after resolving its ability.

We go back to Microbot Alpha's ability:

Microbot Alpha wrote:
Ongoing: Gain +1 power for each of your other Microbots. All of your minions are considered Microbots.


So the ability triggers, and it gains +1 power for each other minion I have in play. If I have 4 other minions, it gains +4 power and is now at a total of 5.

Now we go back to the Leprechaun. It says to destroy the minion. However, Microbot Alpha no longer has a power less than the Leprechaun's. So it's not destroyed.

Here's the official ruling:

Question:

clerical_error wrote:
If there is a Leprechaun on a base can you play a Microbot Alpha assuming that it would reach power 5+?


Official Ruling:

AEGTodd wrote:
You can play it, and it'll live, since the Leprechaun specifically says you resolve its text first.


So how does this apply to our current situation? Non-Infinite Loop says play a card as an extra action, then put it back in your hand instead of going to the discard pile. So you play the action and do everything it says, much like resolving Microbot Alpha's ability before the Leprechaun destroys it. However, Time Walk is no longer going to the discard pile, so Non-Infinite Loop's phrasing is no longer valid, so Time Walk does not go back to your hand.

I think it's a good, analogous situation and shows the intent of the designers. The ruling above can be applied here, so in my opinion Time Walk does not go back to your hand; it gets placed at the bottom of your deck.
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M. B. Downey
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Additionally, I think there might be some sort of ruling that said do everything you can on a card, so we might have a more direct example, such as with an action vice a minion. If the above explanation is not sufficient.
 
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Marc Bennett
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ok I don't feel the leprechaun is an example of a nested effect. normal resolution is

Play minion
do minions ability.

leprechaun would normally resolve like this (because it activates when a minion is played)

play minion
destroy minion
do minions ability.

but because the leprechaun says to activate the units ability first it resolves like this

play minion
do minions ability
destroy minion.

so the minion isn't destroyed because it gains power up to 5 before the leprechaun resolves, no nesting here.

I do not have extensive knowledge of all the cards or everything in the FAQ so it is quite possible there is an example that proves me wrong, however I have not seen it yet and I would still rule that there is a simultaneous event because you have 2 cards both trying to trigger on the same event (that event being replacing the discard of the card with something else)
 
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Marc Bennett
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downeymb wrote:
Additionally, I think there might be some sort of ruling that said do everything you can on a card.


yes you have to do everything on a card if able. we are still allowing it to trigger but since you have 2 effects triggering on the same event, the player whose turn it is gets to choose the order.
 
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Charles Riggs
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You are basing this on the "If multiple effects happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is determines their order" principal. The problem only is that they don't happen at the same time.

Allow me to explain in full detail:
- First you play the first part of [Non-Infinite Loop] (Choose an action from your hand. Play it as an extra action).

- You choose [Time Walk] from your hand and begin to follow the instructions on the [Time Walk] card. At this moment the [Non-Infinite Loop] card is on hold and waiting until the [Time Walk] action is complete to continue the 2nd part of its ability.

- "You may play an extra minion and an extra action this turn. Draw 2 cards. Place this card on the bottom of your deck instead of your discard pile"

- From here you draw 2 cards and place [Time Walk] on the bottom of your deck as instructed. Once that is done, the full instruction of [Time Walk] is completed and right after that (not at same time) the 2nd part of [Non-Infinite Loop] kicks in.

- ,then you may put it back into your hand instead of the discard pile"

--- Official Rulebook, This Is How You Roll --- wrote:

To play an action, show your card and do what it says. Boom! Then discard the action (unless it told you to play it on a base or minion).

- Like it says from the above quote, normally the action would go to the discard pile after you did everything the card said. But since [Time Walk] is now relocated on the bottom of your deck, you cannot put it back into your hand anymore. So that part of [Non-Infinite Loop] cannot be executed and thus [Non-Infinite Loop] goes to the discard pile since there are no more instructions on that card.

Also I would like to note that there is a reason why they instruct you to place [Non-Infinite Loop] on the bottom of your deck. This card in particular basically gives you another turn and it would be overpowered if you keep getting this card back easily from the discard pile with factions like Zombies, Steampunks, Geeks or even Time Travelers themselves.
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Marc Bennett
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Rixino wrote:

Also I would like to note that there is a reason why they instruct you to place [Non-Infinite Loop] on the bottom of your deck. This card in particular basically gives you another turn and it would be overpowered if you keep getting this card back easily from the discard pile with factions like Zombies, Steampunks, Geeks or even Time Travelers themselves.


I totally agree with this. and it is very probable that my interpretation is incorrect.
 
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