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Subject: Who the #$%@^@# playtested this thing rss

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Sean Shaw
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Because (IMO) if they playtested this they should have told FFG that this new combat system had a TON of problems which should (or could have) been reworked.

At the very least FFG could have gone out and seen what old Runebound players might think...much less the new guys.

It wouldn't take long for someone to say...you know...this entire replacing dice with cardboard which will fall apart after one play of the game (actually, probably more than one game...hopefully...but hard to tel, I haven't heard of anyone who's really played more than 4 rounds to tell the truth, via the demos) is actually not that great of an idea.

Maybe you guys should look at something a little more durable.

OR...

You know...this game may be good for two players...but with anything more...the downtime is actually WORSE than the first two iterations of Runebound as the other players in a three or four player game fall asleep waiting for combat resolutions!

Something like that.

These are some obvious things that could have been pointed out...

And these supposed playtesters missed this stuff?

Either that or they were blatantly ignored.

OR, this wasn't playtested at all (isn't there a game called something like that?).

I can't believe this got through alpha much less beta testing.

Who playtested this anyways?

Either FFG needs to listen a little more to their playtesters OR they need other playtesters who aren't simply yes men (or women).

In my opinion of course.

From what I've seen thus far, what could have been a grandslam is slowly turning into what appears could be a fiasco.

Isn't that what playtesters are supposed to help you avoid, at least with the mechanics of the game?
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Ukko Kaarto
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Have you played the game or are you just assuming things?
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Mikkel B.
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Maybe they used playtesters who wasn't biased?
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Aswin Agastya
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I'm not sure where you get the impression that FFG's testers are yes men/women, but from my experience, discussions can be thorough during betas and I've seen things changed.
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Sean Shaw
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It has nothing to do with bias, it has to do with common sense.

It appears they only had YES men play this, OR they completely ignored the comments of the playtesters, OR they didn't playtest it at all.

If it's the first or last of those three options...I want to know who the %$^#%^# playtested it...and if it wasn't...why not?

There's a distinct difference between those playtesting some games like the SWRPG and 40K ones (those are public for the RPGs, and the 40K boardgames at least seem to avoid some of the really dumb mechanical choices they've made with RB) and what we are seeing here.

There are what I'd say are obvious snafu's.

In addition, the handling of this thus far seems pretty bad. They say bad press (or bad publicity) is better than no publicity, but I'd say that's actually not true. Bad publicity (which is a LOT of what this game is getting currently) can be a VERY bad thing.

This bad publicity is basically because what people seem to think are obvious flaws in a the game.

For many companies, this would be a PR nightmare in the making.

What's worse, it's all about the mechanics...something which is why you HAVE playtesters in the first place.

If I had playtesters and they let a mechanic which created a fiasco like this...I'd be pretty peeved if I were trying to sell this game right now..

If the playtesters had pointed out these problems but they were blatantly ignored by the designers...I'd be pretty peeved if I were trying to sell this game right now.

And if the designers simply didn't playtest it at all, I'd be kicking myself for letting it through without any playtesting because this entire fiasco in the making (aka...really bad PR) could have been avoided with some simple common sense perhaps.
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Kārlis Jēriņš
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Or it could be that the playtesters, you know, actually liked the token mechanism. And why wouldn't they?
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Ukko Kaarto
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What if the playtesters liked the token system, found it fun and pushed the designers to keep it?

Edit: Ninja'ed by a no-cylon lamb whose name was taken.
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How about rather than just repeating "I hate it! I hate it!", you tell people what it is about the mechanism that you hate, perhaps then some people who have played it can tell you why they think it is a change for the positive.
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Matthew Collier
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Matchstickman wrote:
How about rather than just repeating "I hate it! I hate it!", you tell people what it is about the mechanism that you hate, perhaps then some people who have played it can tell you why they think it is a change for the positive.



From what I gathered from his crying, he thinks tokens fall apart super quickly and that the token system takes ages to resolve combat, what I also gathered is that he hasn't played it at all and just really wants to scream from the roof that the sky is falling
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David Hammel
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My least favorite thing about geekdom is all of the assumptions and whining based on assumptions prior to release of said product. Just everybody chill out.
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Kerstin
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Ok, so far all I know about Runebound is that it is an adventure game and that the second edition had dice combat and the third has some sort of token combat.
Now I've heard from a few people that have been to GenCon that there are mixed feelings about the tokens, but that one thing they do is make the game move a little faster and therefore better playable at higher playercounts, which apparently was worse before.

I'm confused now, where you get the impression from that it's actually worse (because that's the opposite of what I heard in general) when you don't seem to have played the game even partially and only have talked to a few people that played less than a game at a demo.
Maybe I just haven't seen all the obvious complaints about it, so would be interested from where those are coming? Because in general I find the game interesting and would like to get a few more infos and opinions about it, but apparently I'm missing all the horrific ones.
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Matt Asher
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Mikhail Kruzhkov
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ovis wrote:
Now I've heard from a few people that have been to GenCon that there are mixed feelings about the tokens, but that one thing they do is make the game move a little faster and therefore better playable at higher playercounts, which apparently was worse before.

Actually, as far as I understand, that's the other way around. The combat in the 3d edition will probably become a little slower because of the tokens. That why many people say that the game will probably play well with two, maybe with three, but not more. That is probably the minus number 1. (-)

Another minus for many players of the second edition is that the token system requires an opponent, which maybe makes soloing the second edition either impossible or too fiddly. This may or may not be the minus number 2. (-)

Finally, many people are afraid that there may be problems related to handling tokens. They can become worn after some time, especially if handled with sweaty hands, and they can roll all over the place (Someone suggested making them hexagonal which I think is a good idea). And they look and feel "not so cool" as dice. And all this may or may not be a minus number 3. (-)

Frankly, at first I also was disappointed. But now I think I want to see more. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought initially. A while back I myself suggested that it would be cool if FFG used custom combat dice for combat in the new edition. I like dice, you see. And tokens are almost dice. Not quite, but a little bit. And as for me, I know I can handle them with care so that they will not become destroyed. I still doubt if the token system will work well. Maybe it was not such a great idea to give the tokens to monsters too, so the combat now goes back and forth, like a minigame that can really slow the game down with more than two players. But now I am at least willing to see more.

And yes, I think in any case it is good that FFG is trying something new, even if I myself will not like it. There are so many gamers with various tastes that I am sure that someone, many people actually, is bound to like it.
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Kerstin
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I'm aware of 2. and 3. being mentioned, but for 1. I mostly heard the opposite (although it's just a handful of people that talked about it), so I'm just surprised about it as this is the one thing I didn't hear people complain about.
Just yesterday I e.g. watched some Dice Tower Q&A and also there it was said, that the gameplay felt much more smooth with less downtime and at least that part seemed to have been a consensus from several random GenCon videos I've seen. Sure there was lots of other complaints about the tokens, but this is the first time I hear the downtime one.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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MCollier wrote:
that the token system takes ages to resolve combat,


Right after reading about the token combat system, was anybody else getting chills just thinking about how long combat will take in Rahdo's 3e video? "Well, he could do this, yes, but hmm, oh, he could also do that. But hey, if I use this token now, then, no, that doesn't work. Ah, but I can do this. Yes. Now, where was I..."

sadly only half j/k
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reveur 81
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GreyLord wrote:
At the very least FFG could have gone out and seen what old Runebound players might think...much less the new guys.


From my point of view : Runebound is not a good game. I am interested by this third edition because it's seem to be very different, with good potential.

And when I see all the shitstorms, all the dramas from the old Runebound players... It's probably a good thing if they avoided them.
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Dr. Where
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GreyLord wrote:
I want to know who the %$^#%^# playtested it...and if it wasn't...why not?


Your cute when you are angry you know ;-)
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Martin Larouche
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I'm not particularly interested in Runebound 3.

But a "token" flip is essentially just a 2-sided dice.

Just take a custom 6-sider and glue/paste/engrave/whatever the tokens on 3 sides each. Problem solved.

Of course, you'll probably need a lot of custom dices since there's probably going to be a LOT of tokens in the game + it's inevitable tons of expansions...

Or just throw a dice: 1-3 = result A, 4 to 6 = result B. Take the tokens accordingly.
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John Van Wagoner
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any way to work around the tokens? (and use dice)
 
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Jeffrey Speer
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The game isn't out, and those people freaking out are resistant to change. No one really knows ANYTHING.
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William Smith
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ovis wrote:
I'm aware of 2. and 3. being mentioned, but for 1. I mostly heard the opposite (although it's just a handful of people that talked about it), so I'm just surprised about it as this is the one thing I didn't hear people complain about.
Just yesterday I e.g. watched some Dice Tower Q&A and also there it was said, that the gameplay felt much more smooth with less downtime and at least that part seemed to have been a consensus from several random GenCon videos I've seen. Sure there was lots of other complaints about the tokens, but this is the first time I hear the downtime one.

What Tom was saying in the Dice Tower was not that the game, or specifically combat, moved quicker. He was saying that as the other players play the enemies in battles, they are now active and not just waiting for their turn(thus less down time). I find it highly unlikely that the token flipping is faster than the quick die rolls from Runebound 2e.

I haven't played with the new edition but based on watching videos I have very mixed emotions. Part of me wonders why in the world they would switch to what seems like a very clunky system to me...while the other part of me tends to have a lot of faith in FFG playtesting. I will say this...the success of the game will hinge on this new combat system, so I hope that FFG has indeed done their due diligence in making sure it works.
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Ukko Kaarto
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John_VW wrote:
any way to work around the tokens? (and use dice)


Way number one:

1. Put tokens down on the table
2. Roll d6 for each token 1-3 flip the token, 4-6 keep the current facing.

Rinse and repeat for all the tokens needed. Win!

(For large number of tokens and for more dice rolling color code the tokens and use appropriate colors of dice. That way you can roll for many tokens at once.)


Way number two:

1. Get completely blank white dice. One die for each token.
2. Draw each token to the faces of the die, three of each to get 50/50 chance as with token.
3. Roll.

Edit: Here's link to one blank d6 seller
http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=51440#.V...
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William Smith
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Mordjinn wrote:
John_VW wrote:
any way to work around the tokens? (and use dice)


Way number one:

1. Put tokens down on the table
2. Roll d6 for each token 1-3 flip the token, 4-6 keep the current facing.

Rinse and repeat for all the tokens needed. Win!

(For large number of tokens and for more dice rolling color code the tokens and use appropriate colors of dice. That way you can roll for many tokens at once.)


Way number two:

1. Get completely blank white dice. One die for each token.
2. Draw each token to the faces of the die, three of each to get 50/50 chance as with token.
3. Roll.

Edit: Here's link to one blank d6 seller
http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=51440#.V...

I really like FFG but you know they'll release a "token upgrade kit" to replace worn tokens...they probably already have it built in to their merchandising plans.
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Kerstin
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PKDuke wrote:
ovis wrote:
I'm aware of 2. and 3. being mentioned, but for 1. I mostly heard the opposite (although it's just a handful of people that talked about it), so I'm just surprised about it as this is the one thing I didn't hear people complain about.
Just yesterday I e.g. watched some Dice Tower Q&A and also there it was said, that the gameplay felt much more smooth with less downtime and at least that part seemed to have been a consensus from several random GenCon videos I've seen. Sure there was lots of other complaints about the tokens, but this is the first time I hear the downtime one.

What Tom was saying in the Dice Tower was not that the game, or specifically combat, moved quicker. He was saying that as the other players play the enemies in battles, they are now active and not just waiting for their turn(thus less down time). I find it highly unlikely that the token flipping is faster than the quick die rolls from Runebound 2e.

I haven't played with the new edition but based on watching videos I have very mixed emotions. Part of me wonders why in the world they would switch to what seems like a very clunky system to me...while the other part of me tends to have a lot of faith in FFG playtesting. I will say this...the success of the game will hinge on this new combat system, so I hope that FFG has indeed done their due diligence in making sure it works.


I don't know starting here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9FxSKiszV0&feature=youtu.be... it sounded like he was also talking about combat and just overall gameplay that now seemed smoother for higher player counts. I don't recall who else talked about their experience on Runebound during genCon actually, but from all those that I saw combined I got the impression it got better, not worse, guess I'll have to potentially just try out if it works for me or not then.
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Bryan Hedrick
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Matchstickman wrote:
How about rather than just repeating "I hate it! I hate it!", you tell people what it is about the mechanism that you hate, perhaps then some people who have played it can tell you why they think it is a change for the positive.


Or simply accept that you can not like things other people do like, and vice versa, and that doesn't make said thing "bad" or "broken" in either instance.
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