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Viceroy» Forums » Rules

Subject: ALWAYS negotiate bids rss

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Q You
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This came up during my first game (4 players)

It just seems too disadvantageous to lose a gem bidding for the same card for 2+ players. So everyone eventually start claiming what they want before we all bid.

Although there was times where someone claims to want RED but revealed an empty hand to pass.

I just feel like it gives this auctioning part of the game a bad vibe? Kinda like throwing the whole auctioning out of the window, why bother with it if everyone keeps being "nice".

I would love to try playing it "no negotiating" But gems cost too much to throw away. Am i only one thinking that this auctioning mechanic odd???


Maybe i missed some mechanic where we get "more" gems?
From what we play...
you start with 8 (lose 2 randomly)
you get gems when you play character with X gem symbol
you get gem when you PASS during bid to get 3 gem

Thanks!

offtopic question:
Infinite Gem - can only be activiated during development phase ( you can't use it to bid or to paint?)

What is a typical score for 4 Player?

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Slow Motion Walter
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You get a gem whenever you complete a single-color circle.
You can discard a card during development for 2 gems.
Many law cards give you gems.
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Slow Motion Walter
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exqcme wrote:

offtopic question:
Infinite Gem - can only be activiated during development phase ( you can't use it to bid or to paint?)




Correct.
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Mathue Faulkner
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We always negotiate in our 2p games, and I actually don't like it. One of us just ends up bullying our way into getting what we want. It's my least favorite part of the game...almost ruins it to be honest. I'm thinking of running a possession arrow variant that works like basketball for whenever we pick the same thing.
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Rafael Maia
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this has kinda been my experience too. The cost of losing a bid seems too high to be worth it, or at least this has been the groupthink we've had so far. Only on rare occasions will two players be headstrong, and even then they usually end up finding a compromise because it's just not worth it. Even the swords don't see much use in the auction because the points in the end seem more useful (depends of course on other player's shields). So all players just end up claiming what they want, which is both anticlimatic and gives an edge to whomever is loudest/fastest to call dibs, which doesn't seem to resonate much with the rest of the game...

I'm curious to hear how other players' experiences have been. I've debated trying a couple alternatives - like only allowing for negotiation after the first round of bidding, or giving "dibs" to whomever can/wants to show more gems of the color they want to bid on from behind their shield (without wasting them). But I wonder how the bidding can be made more interesting and in the spirit of the game with the rules as written, just through player interaction, given the high cost of entering a bidding war (especially if there are one or two other players not entering those and just stockpiling gems).
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Q You
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We were always so gem starve so everyone keeps going for low level pyramid to get 4/5 gems.
we end up getting pyramid 6/7 wide on the base.

rmaia wrote:
and gives an edge to whomever is loudest/fastest to call dibs, which doesn't seem to resonate much with the rest of the game...

Yea... some player calls X Y Z color
I would rarely decide to bid exactly the same colourto make them lose gem? or just look at the other color which isn't all that great for my pyramid...

mfaulk80 wrote:
We always negotiate in our 2p games, and I actually don't like it. One of us just ends up bullying our way into getting what we want. It's my least favorite part of the game...almost ruins it to be honest. I'm thinking of running a possession arrow variant that works like basketball for whenever we pick the same thing.


I also tried to spice/change things up by clearing saying i am going for this while someone expressed interests in getting it to bluff them out of it.

But still, it kinda ruin the bid to declare what you want ahead of time....
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Jason
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exqcme wrote:
We were always so gem starve so everyone keeps going for low level pyramid to get 4/5 gems.


So are you doing the other two things the second poster pointed out to get gems?

Also, science tokens. Get a couple of those and passing gives you FIVE gems every time.
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Q You
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jepmn wrote:
exqcme wrote:
We were always so gem starve so everyone keeps going for low level pyramid to get 4/5 gems.


So are you doing the other two things the second poster pointed out to get gems?

Also, science tokens. Get a couple of those and passing gives you FIVE gems every time.



Yes
but no one ever discard cards, because it's already expensive enough to get those cards. i can't imagine discarding it to get only 2.
From my game i didn't get any cards with gear till late game with a level 4 char.
So no one, if i recall, got to take advantage of the gears for extra gem when passing.
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Alexander Romanov
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I have thought about different mechanism in case two or more people bid for the same card. I would like to try following solution. In case two or more players will bid for the same color, instead of both of them proceeding to next bidding round, the person with the lowest numbered card in their pyramid wins a bid, and losers proceed to new bid round. I know its not the best, but at least it is deterministic.
any thoughts on that?
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Frank Hamrick
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We use the negotiation regularly and have no problem. MANY times, we are debating between 2-3 cards we want. But just 'randomly' pick 1 over the other (ex. yellow). Then we announce our choice. Someone else expresses their interest in the same. Then we each re-look, re-think and ultimately one of us says, "I'll settle for ________." Why? Because they could use either color. That way, we both save a gem.

BTW - in answer to another post: to discard during development is not that bad! You probably bought the card for 1 Gem, then discarded it and got 2 gems in the process, for a net gain of a gem! And you are still free to develop (unless it's the 3rd round).
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Jason
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Frank Hamrick wrote:
BTW - in answer to another post: to discard during development is not that bad! You probably bought the card for 1 Gem, then discarded it and got 2 gems in the process, for a net gain of a gem! And you are still free to develop (unless it's the 3rd round).


It's not as bad as it could be, but it isn't great. You paid one gem (if you're lucky and didn't get anyone bidding against you) to get two gems. You could have passed and gotten three gems (plus science bonuses).

The better scenario is that you played a bottom level card that got you another card, paying one (or none, if you have the fight infinite gem) and then next build you discard it for two. Even better - a law card that gave you another card. I THINK all those are valid examples though I don't have the cards in front of me.
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Rafael Maia
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Frank Hamrick wrote:
We use the negotiation regularly and have no problem. MANY times, we are debating between 2-3 cards we want. But just 'randomly' pick 1 over the other (ex. yellow). Then we announce our choice. Someone else expresses their interest in the same. Then we each re-look, re-think and ultimately one of us says, "I'll settle for ________." Why? Because they could use either color. That way, we both save a gem.


yeah, that's exactly how my games go too. I think that's the point though: if, because the cost of a bidding war is too high, most negotiation just ends up with one or two players deciding what they want and then each other player settling for whatever they can get from what is left unclaimed, then it essentially becomes not an auction, but a drafting where first choice goes to whoever is the fastest/loudest/most headstrong. If someone has to settle and make the best situation given other player's choices, then I would expect a more coherent way of deciding/paying for the privilege of choosing first? To me at least this seems a bit detached from the rest of the game mechanics, and probably not what the designers were going for (I'm assuming). If just calling dibs is going to end up being the main auction mechanism, it seems like some other way of drafting, even clockwise with rotating first player, would fit better... That's my opinion at least.
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Jason
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I get what you're saying, but this game is already pretty far towards multiplayer solitaire. Changing it to something like a draft would push it even further. You might as well just play it alone and draw cards from the deck (first 4 cards, then next round 3 cards, then 2 then 1 then back to 4). The auction is one of the few times where there's a chance for some interaction.

As for when I played it with two different groups, there was a fair amount of people going head-to-head. Not every time because that's just damaging, but enough to keep it interesting. Would be even more interesting if people would use swords. Especially on the second or third round of a tie. I'm not sure how useful swords are as a game winner because people with the most points are likely to have at least one set, thus neutralizing your sword with a shield.
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Mark Jackson
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have you tried playing without allowing negotiation?
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Jason
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Ah_Pook wrote:
have you tried playing without allowing negotiation?


Don't know who that's directed to, but I haven't. But I've only managed to get it to the table twice. And only now do I 100% know the rules so I wouldn't want to next time, either. But perhaps some day.
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David Short
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Ah_Pook wrote:
have you tried playing without allowing negotiation?

This. So this. There is zero negotiation when I play this game. It's great.
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William Korner
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We also do not negotiate
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Matt Smith
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dshortdesign wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
have you tried playing without allowing negotiation?

This. So this. There is zero negotiation when I play this game. It's great.

I loved the negotiations in the auction. We made general statements about what we might want, then bid. We had a couple of clashes, and one use of a sword. Overall it worked really well for us.

The guys at the next table were also playing Viceroy, and they went with zero negotiation. They prefer multi-player solitaire games, so that approach worked for them.

The rules say you can talk/negotiate; they don't say you have to.
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Jason
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mvettemagred wrote:
The rules say you can talk/negotiate; they don't say you have to.


This is what I LOVE about board games. The rules are not the LAW (or law cards, in this case. ) You get to customize it to your group's playstyle as much as you want! If everyone agrees, you're never playing it the "wrong" way, even if it's not an official variant. Sure, the way you change it may have some ramifications but if your group likes it, great!
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Rafael Maia
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dshortdesign wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
have you tried playing without allowing negotiation?

This. So this. There is zero negotiation when I play this game. It's great.


I think I need to try this. Or at least no negotiation on the first bidding round, then after players know someone is coming for the same thing they want, they can duke it out. I think this might work quite well!
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Mathue Faulkner
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rmaia wrote:
Frank Hamrick wrote:
We use the negotiation regularly and have no problem. MANY times, we are debating between 2-3 cards we want. But just 'randomly' pick 1 over the other (ex. yellow). Then we announce our choice. Someone else expresses their interest in the same. Then we each re-look, re-think and ultimately one of us says, "I'll settle for ________." Why? Because they could use either color. That way, we both save a gem.


yeah, that's exactly how my games go too. I think that's the point though: if, because the cost of a bidding war is too high, most negotiation just ends up with one or two players deciding what they want and then each other player settling for whatever they can get from what is left unclaimed, then it essentially becomes not an auction, but a drafting where first choice goes to whoever is the fastest/loudest/most headstrong. If someone has to settle and make the best situation given other player's choices, then I would expect a more coherent way of deciding/paying for the privilege of choosing first? To me at least this seems a bit detached from the rest of the game mechanics, and probably not what the designers were going for (I'm assuming). If just calling dibs is going to end up being the main auction mechanism, it seems like some other way of drafting, even clockwise with rotating first player, would fit better... That's my opinion at least.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I've actually been waiting to see someone else voice this same concern. It's just not a fun mechanic IMO. It my group, it actually feels more like multiplayer solitaire because I can bully my way to get what I want every single turn. An actual auction would make it interesting. Calling dibs first and loudest isn't really that fun.

I'd be willing to try zero negotiation, I guess. I have a feeling that my wife wouldn't be a fan though.
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Mayday Games
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We usually start out talking loosely about what we might want, but then after a couple of clashes it becomes clear who wants to negotiate and who doesn't. There seems to always be one player who refuses to negotiate and sort of throws a wrench in the whole process.

I have found that when we demo the game or teach it for the first time that most people are not inclined to say what they want initially, though they often open up and start talking before the auction by the end of the game.
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Mathue Faulkner
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maydaygames wrote:
We usually start out talking loosely about what we might want, but then after a couple of clashes it becomes clear who wants to negotiate and who doesn't. There seems to always be one player who refuses to negotiate and sort of throws a wrench in the whole process.

I have found that when we demo the game or teach it for the first time that most people are not inclined to say what they want initially, though they often open up and start talking before the auction by the end of the game.

In a 2p game, there really is zero incentive to give in. If you give in, then your opponent is getting what they want while you settle. If you don't give in, then both players are going to be hurt about the same...or you get what you want while your opponent suffers...

I'm a bully because I lack any other motivation.
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Steve T
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I've played a couple of two player games where it's more like open negotiation instead of closed bidding. While reading this thread I thought of trying the following variant.

No negotiation allowed prior to bidding. If players pick the same colour & can't decide on different cards then both players go to the next round of bidding but DO NOT lose the gems they just bid. If a player ends up with no cards by the end of the third bidding round they are able to take 1 gem from the bank. That way if you don't end up with a card at least you gain a gem. And if there is no negotiation prior to each bid it could make this phase a little more exciting!
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Raymond Fowkes

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Steve777 wrote:
I've played a couple of two player games where it's more like open negotiation instead of closed bidding. While reading this thread I thought of trying the following variant.

No negotiation allowed prior to bidding. If players pick the same colour & can't decide on different cards then both players go to the next round of bidding but DO NOT lose the gems they just bid. If a player ends up with no cards by the end of the third bidding round they are able to take 1 gem from the bank. That way if you don't end up with a card at least you gain a gem. And if there is no negotiation prior to each bid it could make this phase a little more exciting!


In official rules if you don't get a card during one of the 3 auction phases it counts as passing and you get 3 gems.
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