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Subject: King's Nest winning 0-0 tie? rss

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Lucas Hedgren
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If I have King's Nest, and win ties, do I win a majority card if both I and my opponent have zero of that suit?
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Chevee Dodd
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Re: Kings nest
boomtron wrote:
If I have Kings nest, and win ties, do I win a majority card if both I and my opponent have zero of that suit?


Now, that's just trying to game the system.

No, you must have at least 1.
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Lucas Hedgren
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Re: Kings nest
Why not? Is that in the rules?
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Christian K
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Re: Kings nest
I thought the game was designed by a mathematician I think most mathematicans would say that a 0 vs 0 tie is just as good as a 1 vs 1 tie.
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Ori Avtalion
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Re: Kings nest
Good question! Can you please change the title to something like "Kings Nest winning a 0-0 tie?"
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Paul Newsham
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Zero cannot be a majority. Since neither player is eligible for a majority, it follows that there is no tie to break.
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Christian K
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Where do you get that you need to have more than zero to be eligible for a majority? Are these your personal feelings or something or found in the rulebook (or heard from the designer)?
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Paul Newsham
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Muemmelmann wrote:
Where do you get that you need to have more than zero to be eligible for a majority? Are these your personal feelings or something or found in the rulebook (or heard from the designer)?


Mathematics
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Rafał Kruczek
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Muemmelmann wrote:
I thought the game was designed by a mathematician I think most mathematicans would say that a 0 vs 0 tie is just as good as a 1 vs 1 tie.

Yes you are right. But "designer is mathematician" isn't a good argument. Mathematicians cannot agree whether 0 is natural number or not.
When there is 1:1 tie you can compute share of each player as 1/(1+1) =0.5
But with 0:0 tie 0/(0+0) is undefined. So mathematically 0:0 isn't EXACTLY the same as 1:1.
But looking from game rules perspective matter is clear - you win 0:0 with King's Nest:
All cards mentionad in King's Nest desription (Ancient Divide, The Great Library of Ahm, Golden Ziggurat,Old Man’s Pass, Blood-tear Spring, The Roof of the World, The Sapphire Port.) have
"If you have more ___ that your OPPONENT" . NONE of them has "If you have more than 0".

And when you consider that suits have ONLY 3 cards, there are only 0:0 and 1:1 ties in 5 from 7 of majority cards' abilities. (The is rare possibility for 2:2 tie with Roof of the World).
So if King's nest wouldn't work in 0:0 tie its value would be SERIOUSLY diminished - there is quite good probaility that there will be card for scoring one of the 4 remaining suits and no card from this suit.
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Paul Newsham
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rafal100 wrote:
"If you have more ___ that your OPPONENT" . NONE of them has "If you have more than 0".


Explain to me how you can have more of something without also having more than zero of that thing.
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Ori Avtalion
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rafal100 wrote:
All cards mentionad in King's Nest desription (Ancient Divide, The Great Library of Ahm, Golden Ziggurat,Old Man’s Pass, Blood-tear Spring, The Roof of the World, The Sapphire Port.) have
"If you have more ___ that your OPPONENT" . NONE of them has "If you have more than 0".

That's not accurate. The Roof of the World doesn't, and I'm not sure why it was included (I mentioned it here: Re: Molehill questions)
 
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Rafał Kruczek
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Tarnop wrote:
rafal100 wrote:
"If you have more ___ that your OPPONENT" . NONE of them has "If you have more than 0".


Explain to me how you can have more of something without also having more than zero of that thing.


Maybe you don't know how "King's nest" work. It allows you to get points for majority points when you have Amount EQUAL to opponent (also sometimes called "tie").
Simply. It changes ">" in condition in "≥"



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Paul Newsham
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And as I explained above, two people without a castle aren't tying for the majority in castles. They're just two people without castles.
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Rafał Kruczek
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SaltyHorse wrote:
rafal100 wrote:
All cards mentionad in King's Nest desription (Ancient Divide, The Great Library of Ahm, Golden Ziggurat,Old Man’s Pass, Blood-tear Spring, The Roof of the World, The Sapphire Port.) have
"If you have more ___ that your OPPONENT" . NONE of them has "If you have more than 0".

That's not accurate. The Roof of the World doesn't, and I'm not sure why it was included (I mentioned it here: Re: Molehill questions)


It is mentioned because I've done copy and paste from manual.
These 2 are different than majority in suit but their scoring condition is comparing with the OPPONENT.
Molehill is majority in which range of number can be wider but geting 0:0 tie is probable. With Saphire Port 0:0 tie is almost impossible- unless players are palying to achive such result , or some kind of minimum score variant.


 
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Rafał Kruczek
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Tarnop wrote:
And as I explained above, two people without a castle aren't tying for the majority in castles. They're just two people without castles.

So when there is a match when neither of teams scores a goal you call it "double loss" or a "tie"?
"majority" is a word used as a shortcut fo fit the ability on small designated place card (to make more place for aesthetically pleasing picture).
By that method "King's nest" is "Win all ties". ALSO 0:0 TIE.
King's nest is a card which puts you in advantageous position (of being default winner) when scoring some cards. The opponent has to have greater amount for you NOT TO SCORE.
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Paul Newsham
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rafal100 wrote:
Tarnop wrote:
And as I explained above, two people without a castle aren't tying for the majority in castles. They're just two people without castles.

So when there is a match when neither of teams scores a goal you call it "double loss" or a "tie"?
"majority" is a word used as a shortcut fo fit the ability on small designated place card (to make more place for aesthetically pleasing picture).
By that method "King's nest" is "Win all ties". ALSO 0:0 TIE.
King's nest is a card which puts you in advantageous position (of being default winner) when scoring some cards. The opponent has to have greater amount for you NOT TO SCORE.


Well you make a compelling argument except

1. Nothing you just said is in the rulebook, apart from "win all ties"

2. The co writer of the rules says

Random_Person wrote:
No, you must have at least 1.


You say bringing no castles is like a goalless match. What he ( and I ) are saying is if you show up with no castles, the match never kicks off.

(Obviously I am using castles as an example, this applies to all suits)
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Chevee Dodd
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boomtron wrote:
Why not? Is that in the rules?


No, it is not. I mistakenly assumed it was implied, but for many in this thread, it appears not. Writing rules is a difficult challenge sometimes as brevity is often most appreciated.

For instance: we also never say that you should shuffle and deal the cards face down. That is implied. It could be argued, therefore, that since the rules don't specifically say this, that you can shuffle and deal everything face-up.


Having more implies that you have at least some... at least that is what I believed was implied. I will correct this in future printings, but trust me, you must have at least 1.
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Kevin W
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I do not understand a word that is written here
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Randy Hoyt
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Quote:
I mistakenly assumed it was implied, but for many in this thread, it appears not. Writing rules is a difficult challenge


@Chevee: I certainly appreciate the difficulty of the challenge! For what it's worth, I too assumed that in a 0-0 situation the player with the King's Nest would win. (It feels like a 0-0 tie to me also.) The King's Nest feels to me like it changes the condition from "having more than" to "having the same as or more than".
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We never assumed that you can score something from nothing.
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Shoosh shoo
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LOL reading this thread actually made me laugh. Reminded me of philosophy classes!

The way I would choose to play is that for King's Nest to apply its' effect you would need to have at least 1 of the suit that was in question. I wouldn't consider 0:0 to be a tie because in that case both players have nothing, therefore one cannot have a majority of nothing!

Don't get me wrong, I can see why this question would come up... it was just funny to read about
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Gillum the Stoor
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I am glad that the revised rules specify explicitly that you must have at least 1 of the specified suit to gain points for the relevant cards.

Or at least they do for Ancient Divide, The Great Library of Ahm, Golden Ziggurat, Old Man’s Pass, and Blood-tear Spring.

They don't for The Molehill or The Sapphire Port.

My guess is that this was an oversight and that (1) if you have King's Nest and The Molehill, you don't score 8 VPs if neither player has a one-card suit; and (2) if you have King's Nest and The Sapphire Port, you don't score 8 VPs if neither player has a card that scores more than 0 VPs.

Mottainai has special cards that allow players holding them to win ties. The rules state explicitly that this include ties at 0.
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Russ Williams
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FWIW there are certainly other games where you can score for having 0 of something, so it's not an inherently unreasonable or mathematically inconsistent rule interpretation. E.g. Lords in Kingdom Builder gives 12 points to the player(s) with the most houses in a map quadrant, and 6 points to the player(s) with the second most houses; it is possible to earn points with 0 houses.
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Pedro Gallardo
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I just received my copy 2 days ago and played for the first time yesterday.
This doubt arised and my first instinct was that you only win the tie if you have at least one of the suit. I even thought that I've read it in the rules. But no.
It was not that obvious. But I'm glad you added it to the new rules.
 
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