Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
36 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Star Realms» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Why Fleet HQ is the worst 8-cost card rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Flying Arrow
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fleet HQ is the weakest of the four 8-cost cards. In most cases it is worse than some of the 7-cost cards.

On its face it looks great. 8 defense and +1 to each ship. So it should be worth at least a 12 authority swing each time you play it. 8 dmg absorbed and the 4 ships in your hand with Fleet HQ. But...

. Base killers wreck it. Missile Mech, Command Ship, Blob Destroyer. If any of those are in your opponent's deck count on them being used on the Fleet HQ.

. It doesn't usually stick around. Because it is so expensive, by the time you can afford it, your opponent can probably kill it as soon as you play it because it's so late in the game and he has the combat.

. Not an outpost. Obvious, but it means it's worth 8 less when you lose.

. Outposts in your hand. No +1 for them. You can always get at least 5dmg out of Blob World. You might only get 2dmg out of a play of Fleet HQ.

. If drawn last. It works great with cards that let you draw more cards... Each ship you draw is another +1. But if you draw extra cards and you draw Fleet HQ last you might get no bonuses. (If there's a chance of drawing it you want to try not to play your ships until after all your draws.) And it's possibly killed before your next turn.

. Missing the shuffle. It's easier for bases to miss the shuffle because they stay in play for at least one extra turn. Even if you get a good value from a play of Fleet HQ, there's a good chance you'll be playing it less often.

Some of these are bigger effects than others but together they knock Fleet HQ down quite a bit. The best time to take it is very narrow. Early in the game and when your opponent isn't likely to be able to take it out right away. Not too early... Scrap and trade are more important. Not too late... outposts are crucial after a certain point. Having enough trade early enough and when your opponent doesn't have a lot of combat (and especially no base killers) - is a narrow window.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Shaw
United States
Idaho
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it depends on how aggressively you purchase things. It is possible someone could get it around turn 4-6 with an aggressive enough strategy and enough luck. I suppose for some that's near the end game, but for some there's still enough game to have it last.

That said, I always go for blob, and aggressive high damage tactics instead.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gillum the Stoor
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Because it's not an outpost, base killers can't touch it until all your outposts are gone.

(If it were an outpost, it could be targeted ahead of all your other outposts.)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T K
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gillum wrote:
Because it's not an outpost, base killers can't touch it until all your outposts are gone.


True, which is why in that scenario I will always use damage to take out the outposts, then use a base killer on Fleet HQ. The app will throw up warnings to be ignored. I just wanted to mention it for anybody reading this that's newer to the app. Their initial reaction would be to think they are doing something wrong. The warnings are helpful, but shouldn't always be followed if you can see a better way to optimize damage.



3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Cook
United States
Denton
Texas
flag msg tools
*beep*
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is the attack bonus not retroactive for other ship cards you have already played in the current round? I'm not sure how the app handles it, but if I were playing in person I would give the bonus retroactively since in my mind those ships are still "active" since they still can trigger their ally color bonuses.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Flying Arrow
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's kind of a strange ruling, but Fleet HQ grants +1 combat to each ship's primary ability. The primary ability triggers when a card is played, so cards played before Fleet HQ is played do not get the bonus.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Cook
United States
Denton
Texas
flag msg tools
*beep*
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good to know. In that case Fleet HQ is more horrible than I previously thought since its only useful strategy (lots of card draw) works against itself.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Heise
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with all of your points. I will often buy a strong 6 like a Battle Blob or missile mech rather than a Fleet HQ. If the HQ had an additional "draw a card" a la Capitol World or strong yellow ally ability then it might be worth it at $8, but as it stands I'll only buy it when I've already got the game in the bag.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Flying Arrow
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I will buy it when I need offense, have the trade, and there is no other combat up. If it's early enough I will take it over Battle Blob, but Fleet HQ is not a good closer.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Heise
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FlyingArrow wrote:
... but Fleet HQ is not a good closer.


That is its biggest problem, IMO. All of the other $7 and $8 cards are great in the late game because they fuel big combos with their card draws. Fleet HQ on the other hand is only good if it stays alive for several consecutive turns, which is exactly the opposite of what is likely to happen in the late game. HQ is too expensive to be so useless in the late game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Flying Arrow
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It can single-handedly win games. In a game where the trade row is just trade, authority, trade. Fleet HQ stands as (a) the biggest combat card and (b) one that the opponent can't take out. Those games are few and far between, though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benj Davis
Australia
Summer Hill
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FlyingArrow wrote:
It's kind of a strange ruling, but Fleet HQ grants +1 combat to each ship's primary ability. The primary ability triggers when a card is played, so cards played before Fleet HQ is played do not get the bonus.


It is a very odd ruling, yes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jlerpy wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
It's kind of a strange ruling, but Fleet HQ grants +1 combat to each ship's primary ability. The primary ability triggers when a card is played, so cards played before Fleet HQ is played do not get the bonus.


It is a very odd ruling, yes.


The way to think about it is that a viper's primary ability isn't to do 1 damage. It's to add one damage to your combat pool. I explain it like this, "imagine combat is coins. this ability says gain one combat coin. later in your turn you can spend those coins however you like for damage. you lose them at the end of your turn."

That ability, like all primary abilities, triggers when you play the card. For all cards, once their primary ability has happened, that's it, it's done. You can't choose later to draw off a Corvette, or scrap off a Trade Bot, or draw off a Yacht (if you later happen to play a 2nd base).

So for Fleet HQ to retroactively increase combat it would have to say something like: "For every ship you have played this turn, gain 1 combat" - more like Blob World, which still counts Blob cards played before World, because it's "cards played this turn".
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Laura Blachek
United States
charlotte hall
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jlerpy wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
It's kind of a strange ruling, but Fleet HQ grants +1 combat to each ship's primary ability. The primary ability triggers when a card is played, so cards played before Fleet HQ is played do not get the bonus.


It is a very odd ruling, yes.


Yes, but not actually unique... The embassy yacht only lets you draw two cards if there are two bases in play at the time you play the yacht...at least i think thats how the app plays it.


Edit: ninja'd
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benj Davis
Australia
Summer Hill
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
greylag wrote:
Jlerpy wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
It's kind of a strange ruling, but Fleet HQ grants +1 combat to each ship's primary ability. The primary ability triggers when a card is played, so cards played before Fleet HQ is played do not get the bonus.


It is a very odd ruling, yes.


The way to think about it is that a viper's primary ability isn't to do 1 damage. It's to add one damage to your combat pool. I explain it like this, "imagine combat is coins. this ability says gain one combat coin. later in your turn you can spend those coins however you like for damage. you lose them at the end of your turn."

That ability, like all primary abilities, triggers when you play the card. For all cards, once their primary ability has happened, that's it, it's done. You can't choose later to draw off a Corvette, or scrap off a Trade Bot, or draw off a Yacht (if you later happen to play a 2nd base).

So for Fleet HQ to retroactively increase combat it would have to say something like: "For every ship you have played this turn, gain 1 combat" - more like Blob World, which still counts Blob cards played before World, because it's "cards played this turn".


Sure, it's far from unique, but it's an odd ruling because it makes Fleet HQ even worse.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Schoonmaker-Gates
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I never chimed in on this. I agree that Fleet HQ is the weakest 8-cost card. I also agree it is worse than same 7-cost cards. I 100% agree with all the points that the OP makes. Honestly, it is probably my least purchased card.

Maybe they could add an "or do this" to the abilities, like the Blob World. Maybe something like "draw a card and opponent discards a card", or "opponent discards two cards" or "opponent discards highest cost card in hand".

Currently, I'm just not afraid of this card, and I'm not excited about buying it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Flying Arrow
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you were to re cost it, what would it cost?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Schoonmaker-Gates
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
At it's current power, I'd say 6 is too low, and 7 is too high. There's no way that it should cost 8 based on its current power.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Cook
United States
Denton
Texas
flag msg tools
*beep*
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think at 7 and if it was changed to an Outpost it would be worth it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Heise
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think if it's main ability also drew a card (like Capitol World) then it might be worth $8, thought it might also need a Discard ally trigger too.

I think it's worth $6 as it currently is. IMO, it's currently about as powerful as a Port of Call and only slightly more powerful than War World because of it's defense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Flying Arrow
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think a low 7. If it comes out early enough it can literally win a game, depending on what combat is out there. At 8 it rarely comes out early enough to produce enough damage to be worth it. I think at 6 it would regularly come out early and be a bit too strong. 7 should be about right, but d still not as good as Mothership or Dreadnaught.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
R. O. Schaefer
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
The funny thing is that I remember a Megahaulin podcast "Fleet HQ vs. Brain world" where one of the hosts put it over brain world overall. Back then - without the expansion(s) being out - these two were obviously regarded the strongest cards. At least amongst the podcast hosts.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Biggs Larkdighter
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
railbaron wrote:
At it's current power, I'd say 6 is too low, and 7 is too high. There's no way that it should cost 8 based on its current power.


There are a lot of cost 6 cards I would take over Fleet HQ. If I have 8 buying power and there isn't anything else, I will take Fleet HQ.

Fleet HQ becomes a little more appealing when my deck is yellow heavy, or if I can protect Fleet HQ with some outposts so it stays out for more than one turn.

But in general I don't think it's worth $8 (I don't like paying $8 for Blob World either).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Flying Arrow
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rdemille wrote:
railbaron wrote:
At it's current power, I'd say 6 is too low, and 7 is too high. There's no way that it should cost 8 based on its current power.


There are a lot of cost 6 cards I would take over Fleet HQ. If I have 8 buying power and there isn't anything else, I will take Fleet HQ.


I agree with this, but that's because Fleet HQ is a terrible finisher. By the time you can (typically) afford it, it's too late. It does its damage by sticking around. In the end game, your opponent has enough damage that it doesn't stick around and you might be dead by the next turn anyway. The big 6 cost cards are better if you're only playing them once.

But a turn 3 Fleet HQ can be almost as devastating as a turn 3 Brain World if you can't kill it. You don't see it as often because people don't buy Fleet HQ. For good reason. It's a bigger risk... you buy it and then Missile Mech pops up for your opponent. Or you bought it when there was no combat but the next 3 cards that pop up are Ram, Ram, Frigate. And then that Fleet HQ you paid 8 for is now worth about 4. But if Fleet HQ is bought early and sits for 3 or 4 turns, it's usually game over. That's why I think 7 instead of 6 would be the right cost. At cost 6, it would be an easy turn 3 buy and would be overpowered at that point.

While at cost 6 it would be too cheap, at cost 8 I usually wouldn't even buy it on turn 3... just because it is such a big risk. By buying it you might have just won the game if it sits 3 turns. But you might have just lost the game because you paid 8 for a base that only gets you 3 combat every time it comes out and misses the shuffle every time. Usually safer to take two 4s or a 2 and a 6 if there are decent options available.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Heise
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I still wouldn't buy it at $7 for the risks you outline. I think $6 would work if it's defense were also lowered to 6. +1 damage per ship just isn't as powerful as it seems, especially early game; you can get similar damage output from other bases like a Royal Redoubt, War World, or even Breeding Site.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.