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Subject: In Pacific, should US and UK be incentivised to not invade japan? rss

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Adam Ruzzo
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It seems really odd that the US and UK pacific tracks give 5 exclusive points for ending 1 space away from Japan, but give 8 points to US and UK when they end in Japan. This seems to give a big inscentive to *not* invade japan.


Doing the math:

UK front ends just outside Japan and one of the US fronts also ends just outside japan. The other US front enters and forces Japan to Surrender:

UK = 5 + 8 VP = 13
US = 5+ 8 VP = 13

If the UK front enters Japan as well:

UK = 8 VP
US = 5 + 8 + 8 = 21

This is a HUGE point swing, and it seems to make no sense that the UK should be disincentived *this much* from entering Japan.

If the US get both fronts in and the UK stops outside, it works out even better for them: 21 to 16 in favor of the UK.

It seems like the rulebook and the map clash, and the only way all this makes sense to me is if only the *owning* faction of the front gets the VP in the Pacific. US/UK share VPs on the western front along the entire track, including germany. Japan's tracks are independent, and even the Japan space seems to imply that each front only gives VPs to it's individual owner (and the US/UK don't share).

The rulebook is the only thing mucking up this interpretation. Help us obi wan herman, you're our only hope!
 
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Mike Oberly
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I have been up all night at work, and I think I'm too tired to entirely parse this question, but note from the Glossary under Front:

"Front markers represent the theater frontlines. For all scoring purposes the US Front markers represent both the US and UK. The same applies to UK front markers: they represent both the US and UK"

I am happy to let Mark weigh in when he has a chance, because I'm a little confused at this point, too. (Did I mention I was tired?) Your math isn't adding up to me, but I'll take another look after I get some sleep.
 
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Steffan O'Sullivan
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It's only 8 VP per country, not per front. See Re: Invading Japan with more than one front
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Adam Parker
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Adam in your example, if the US enters Japan, the UK can't enter it after. Neither can another US front.

[7.82] "Japan surrenders if any Front enters the Japan space."

[7.8] "When Germany or Japan surrenders, no further Front movement occurs on any Front Track in that theater."

(NB: Germany surrenders when the Western and/or Eastern fronts enter it.)
 
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Benji
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Adam Parker wrote:
Adam in your example, if the US enters Japan, the UK can't enter it after. Neither can another US front.

[7.82] "Japan surrenders if any Front enters the Japan space."

[7.8] "When Germany or Japan surrenders, no further Front movement occurs on any Front Track in that theater."

(NB: Germany surrenders when the Western and/or Eastern fronts enter it.)

They can't enter it AFTER, but they can enter during the same conference. All movements during a conference are simultaneous, so there can be multiple fronts entering, even all US and UK (otherwise germany couldn't be conquered by both fronts either).

But If all US und UK fronts did enter, this woud still only be 8 points for US and UK. Noone gets ever more than 13 points (theoretically the US would if the UK invaded Japan and both US fronts were just outside, that would give them 18 points against the UKs 8, so it's most probably not going to happen)
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Ingólfur Valsson
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Could it have to do with invading Japan would be costly in lives, a huge amphibious beach invasion that would dwarf D-Day.

So if they beat japan without that loss of live, the old "justifying the A-bomb" argument?
 
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Adam Parker
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Benji, see 7.73 Case 5.

Germany can have two fronts enter it during the same conference (Western Front and Eastern Front), because the rules explicitly say it can.

The rules regarding Japan are explicity clear too. One front only.
 
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Adam Parker wrote:
Benji, see 7.73 Case 5.

Germany can have two fronts enter it during the same conference (Western Front and Eastern Front), because the rules explicitly say it can.

The rules regarding Japan are explicity clear too. One front only.

Sorry, but as explicitly clear as it may seem, please see 7.72 point 4:
"If multiple fronts are trying to advance into Germany or Japan, split the forces evenly ..."

So multiple fronts may definitely advance into Japan as well as Germany during the same conference.

Otherwise there would be a major timing issue.

Your point speaks about "any" front as opposed to the western or eastern, but not the italian front which may invade germany.
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Steffan O'Sullivan
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4.33 makes it pretty clear that all fronts have to check for movement each turn. Since no order of front movement is ever given, it must be considered simultaneous. Thus, multiple fronts may enter Japan in the same turn.
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Mike Oberly
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sos1 wrote:
It's only 8 VP per country, not per front. See Re: Invading Japan with more than one front

I think there is a disconnect here (myself included) that can be pretty easily cleared up. Mark clearly says here that the US can't get the VPs from two fronts ending up in Japan.

But if both the UK and US end the same turn with a Front in Japan (this has not happened in one of my games yet), do both the US and UK get 16 VPs? My thinking was 'yes', but now I am not entirely certain. I do think this rule could use some clarity, either via different wording or a concrete example.
 
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Mark Herman
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MikeOberly wrote:
sos1 wrote:
It's only 8 VP per country, not per front. See Re: Invading Japan with more than one front

I think there is a disconnect here (myself included) that can be pretty easily cleared up. Mark clearly says here that the US can't get the VPs from two fronts ending up in Japan.

But if both the UK and US end the same turn with a Front in Japan (this has not happened in one of my games yet), do both the US and UK get 16 VPs? My thinking was 'yes', but now I am not entirely certain. I do think this rule could use some clarity, either via different wording or a concrete example.

I have to jump in here, No... the most a player can gain total from having a front, or two or three in a surrendered Axis country is 8 VP.
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Adam Parker
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Mark looking at the following diagram:



All 4 fronts are eligible to move this conference. The US Central Front moved first and just entered Japan from Okinawa. This means Japan has now surrendered and both the US and UK win 8VP each. The USSR gets 0VP.

Question:

Uisng rule [7.8] and [7.8.2] literally:

Quote:
When Germany or Japan surrenders, no further Front movement occurs on any Front Track in that theater … Japan surrenders if any Front enters the Japan space.

Can the US SW Pac Front, UK CBI Front, and/or USSR Far East Front now also attempt to enter Japan this conference or does all movement in this theater now immediately stop?

Thanks
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Doug Bloomer
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The US Central Front moved first

How? There is no "go first" in resolving the fronts during a single conference.
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Adam Parker
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Benji68 wrote:
They can't enter it AFTER, but they can enter during the same conference. All movements during a conference are simultaneous, so there can be multiple fronts entering, even all US and UK …

Benji (and Doug), that does explain this little map notation doesn’t it?



I think Rule 7.8 would better read:

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quantumscipio wrote:
Quote:
The US Central Front moved first

How? There is no "go first" in resolving the fronts during a single conference.

Fronts advance simultaneously. Being humans, we have to pick an order to roll for them in, but the results are simultaneous.
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Mark Herman
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Adam Parker wrote:
Mark looking at the following diagram:



All 4 fronts are eligible to move this conference. The US Central Front moved first and just entered Japan from Okinawa. This means Japan has now surrendered and both the US and UK win 8VP each. The USSR gets 0VP.

Question:

Uisng rule [7.8] and [7.8.2] literally:

Quote:
When Germany or Japan surrenders, no further Front movement occurs on any Front Track in that theater … Japan surrenders if any Front enters the Japan space.

Can the US SW Pac Front, UK CBI Front, and/or USSR Far East Front now also attempt to enter Japan this conference or does all movement in this theater now immediately stop?

Thanks

Front movement is simultaneous, best accomplished sequentially unless everyone can roll the dice at the same instant.

There are no tricks here to be found.
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Adam Parker
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“MarkHerman” wrote:
There are no tricks here to be found.

You mean like the time I invaded Normandy without the Second Front, coz I was just so into the moment?

whistle *

Thanks to the others here who pointed me in the right direction too.

(* That game was a restart).
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suPUR DUEper
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So in our game today the U.S. was in Kyushu and the Brits in Formosa. If I understand it right:

If the U.S. (SW Pac Front) gets in Japan, they pick up 3VP and the Brits get 8VPs.
If the Brits (CBI) get to Japan, they pick up 3VP and the Americans get 8VPs.

So in a bizarre twist, each side tried to support the landing of the other (i.e. To pick up a free 8 points). Sounds REALLY wrong but I think we are doing it right. Thoughts?
 
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TedW wrote:

So in a bizarre twist, each side tried to support the landing of the other (i.e. To pick up a free 8 points). Sounds REALLY wrong but I think we are doing it right. Thoughts?

What's wrong in trying to get the other guy do the heavy lifting, while you get the credits along with him? Sounds like a pretty good simulation of real events to me.

Both factions shouldn't be too eager to invade the japanese mainland. That's why there is another possibility to end the war...

Then again, depending on the overall situation, maybe you WANT the other guy to get a few extra points...
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Mark Herman
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TedW wrote:
So in our game today the U.S. was in Kyushu and the Brits in Formosa. If I understand it right:

If the U.S. (SW Pac Front) gets in Japan, they pick up 3VP and the Brits get 8VPs.
If the Brits (CBI) get to Japan, they pick up 3VP and the Americans get 8VPs.

So in a bizarre twist, each side tried to support the landing of the other (i.e. To pick up a free 8 points). Sounds REALLY wrong but I think we are doing it right. Thoughts?

I am not sure that you have it right, so just in case.

9.4.G: 8 VP per Axis Country where you have a Front (all US and UK fronts give 8 points to both the US and the UK).

So if the SW Pac enters Japan, the US and the UK get 8 VP each. The UK would get 5 bonus for having taken Formosa.

If the CBI enters Japan, the US and the UK get 8 VP each. The US would get 5 VP for Kyushu.

If both the CBI and the SW Pac enter Japan, the US and the UK get 8 VP each. Neither would get any additional points.

Not sure where Central Pacific front is located, but if they are further back than Okinawa and SW Pac enters Japan, the US would also being giving the UK and the USSR 5 VP for ISR (Cent Pac 2 spaces plus back versus zero for SW Pac). If the Central Pacific is in Okinawa this avoids ISR, then the US would get 5 additional VP for Okinawa and neutralizes the UK benefit.

Now as to why that makes sense, the British by holding Formosa would gain leverage in the post war, same for the US holding Okinawa, which we still have bases on.

From a game perspective, depending on the score, each might put resources for the other to advance. Remember, blue and green blocks are the same, so these are joint commands. In either case the UK gets more points than they did historically by significantly outperforming the history out of the CBI. Historically the USN under King successfully blocked out the British from having too much to do with the Pacific War except when they were in dire straits, he did not like the British.
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Yeah, so the upshot is:

If the U.S. block conquers Japan, the score is Britain 13, US 8.
If the British block goes in,the score is US 13, Britain 8.

Just is odd that the faction who did the conquering gets less VP's than the faction that watched.

In our game on the last turn, the Brits threw all their production behind the SW Pac and the Americans dumped everything into the CBI. Not only is that the exact opposite of what happened up until then, but if both succeed, they only net 8 points each instead of the 13 one would have gotten had their front failed. Weird.

 
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TedW wrote:
Yeah, so the upshot is:

If the U.S. block conquers Japan, the score is Britain 13, US 8.
If the British block goes in,the score is US 13, Britain 8.

Just is odd that the faction who did the conquering gets less VP's than the faction that watched.

In our game on the last turn, the Brits threw all their production behind the SW Pac and the Americans dumped everything into the CBI. Not only is that the exact opposite of what happened up until then, but if both succeed, they only net 8 points each instead of the 13 one would have gotten had their front failed. Weird.


Where was Central Pacific?

The reason I keep asking is if the CentPac was in Iwo Jima, I would play the invasion differently.

The U.S. Would not support the CBI but support the Cent PAC to Okinawa. The UK in your example is supporting the SWPac. In this case the score received for both sides is even.

Otherwise the score for the British is 18 to 8 U.S. Or 18 to 10 U.S.

I bring it up because you are not representing the score accurately.
 
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I did not include the Central Pacific to simplify the discussion.

Germany had surrendered so we were swimming in production. The US was pushing the Central Pacific to Okinawa to alleviate the potential ISR penalty and had the support to do so. So that was a non issue in this case.

Thus, thus overall situation was

If US takes Japan via SW Pacific, score will be: US 13 (8+5), Britain 13 (8+5)
If the Brits take Japan via CBI, score will be: US 18 (8+5+5), Britain 8.

This is the same outcome as my example (except that we are adding 5 points to the Americans in both scenarios).

If the Brits take Japan, it scores more points for the US; If the Americans take Japan, it scores more points the Brits.

It just seems odd that the American benefit more by shifting the axis of advance from SW Pacific to the CBI at the 11th hour.

And heaven forbid, if both succeed, they hurt each other (US 8+5=13 and Britain=8). Yikes!

 
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TedW wrote:
I did not include the Central Pacific to simplify the discussion.

Germany had surrendered so we were swimming in production. The US was pushing the Central Pacific to Okinawa to alleviate the potential ISR penalty and had the support to do so. So that was a non issue in this case.

Thus, thus overall situation was

If US takes Japan via SW Pacific, score will be: US 13 (8+5), Britain 13 (8+5)
If the Brits take Japan via CBI, score will be: US 18 (8+5+5), Britain 8.

This is the same outcome as my example (except that we are adding 5 points to the Americans in both scenarios).

If the Brits take Japan, it scores more points for the US; If the Americans take Japan, it scores more points the Brits.

It just seems odd that the American benefit more by shifting the axis of advance from SW Pacific to the CBI at the 11th hour.

And heaven forbid, if both succeed, they hurt each other (US 8+5=13 and Britain=8). Yikes!


Ok now that I have all the information I would like to offer that I draw a different conclusion from the situation described in your opening post.

The way you simplified the situation is inadvertently misleading. Here is the situation as I see it from the way you described it.

First off every game of Churchill has unique features that make the narrative different, but the CBI in Formosa is not a common feature of most games, but it does happen.

In the full situation represented in your game the CBI and SWPac are in the Formosa and Kyushu spaces respectively, both with 5 VP respectively. CentPac is in Iwo Jima in a 2 VP space. The question is what to do?

If the goal is to get the most points with lots of production available the likely outcome is CBI (supported by US) and SW Pac (supported by UK) enter Japan causing surrender with CentPac entering Okinawa for 5 VP. The score is US 13 to UK 8, a differential of 5.

If for some reason due to issues that reduce the US ability to direct their full production, the worst case outcome is 13 for both US and UK where only the SWPac invades Japan. As the scoring is zero sum the differential score is really what matters and how it benefits each side. In this situation both US and UK get the 8 VP surrender and Okinawa and Formosa cancel each other out. So, zero differential, a great Allied victory over Imperial Japan.

Flipping the situation around where the US gains control over the UK DO/Production, then if CBI enters and SWPac/ CentPac end up in Kyushu and Okinawa respectively then the resultant score is US 18, UK 8 for a differential of 10 VP. This might be a US disaster in a condition 2 victory.

The other important factor that is not discused here and was probably not relevant to your situation is what was the relative scores. I can see a situation where the US or the UK wants to receive less not more points to achieve a condition 1 victory.

If you look at where you started this thread, this is a very different answer. I hope this clarifies the situation for you.

The answer is often not as simple as it would at first appear.

I hope this helps,

Mark
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Hi Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail. Yeah, in our game, Winston pretty much gave up on Italy but went all in on CBI. He drove all the way to Formosa when we realized that it was in each of our best interests to shove the other through the front door.

I completely get how the relative VP standings might affect which alternative is best for me (i.e. it is not always best for me to get the most VP's etc.). What I was questioning was the logic/rationale for giving the Brits an incremental 8 points for pushing the SW Front into Japan while netting the USA only 3 incremental VPs.

Instead of awarding 8 points to the front gaining Japan, one of the guys suggested just giving an incremental 3 points to both the US and Brits if the a front takes Japan (max of one 3 point award total no matter how many fronts make it). That way, the faction that takes Japan gets 8 points total and the freeloader only gets 3 (plus of course, whatever points they have on other fronts. That would make more thematic sense to me but, of course, there may be other unintended consequences that I haven't thought of (or upset the overall balance in more traditional games where the Brit ignores CBI).

Thanks again for responding. We had a terrific session today evidenced by the fact that we are still talking about it.

Ted
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