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Subject: Is it fiddly? rss

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Sight Reader
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One of the reviews complained about the game being fiddly. Another complained that, between having to retake moves that having to choose to either move/shot, there wasn't enough movement.

Is there merit to any of this? I'm really getting curious about this game...
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Trevor Franklin
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My thoughts after 2 plays (first 2 scenarios) is that this is a perfect balance between super elegant dexterity games like crokinole, and ones that are more "riotous fun but long set up time" like pitch car. I think it's super fun and only as fiddly as you let it be. If in doubt, rules decisions should be made to error on the side of fun and theme, as this is a very fun and theme driven dexterity game. To me, the only possibly fiddly thing is turning over your hat to know if a cowboy has gone. People just need to remember that.
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David Luchetti
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FranklinT wrote:
My thoughts after 2 plays (first 2 scenarios) is that this is a perfect balance between super elegant dexterity games like crokinole, and ones that are more "riotous fun but long set up time" like pitch car. I think it's super fun and only as fiddly as you let it be. If in doubt, rules decisions should be made to error on the side of fun and theme, as this is a very fun and theme driven dexterity game. To me, the only possibly fiddly thing is turning over your hat to know if a cowboy has gone. People just need to remember that.

I agree that it's only as fiddly as you allow it to be

The rule and scenario books are both short and to the point - which leaves some ambiguity (as seen a lot in these forums) BUT you can simply decide "this is the rule" as you play and encounter unique situations and no-one will ever really question that decision
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Sam Cook
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The game I played was very fiddly, and most of the actions were shooting. We had a lot of close calls too that we weren't sure were ricochets or not which was kind of frustrating. There are lots of rules ambiguities, so I would definitely recommend going into it with a mindset of it's more of a light activity than a serious competitive game.

I'm not sure I really like the rule where if you hit a cowboy he lays down and is immune to damage. It makes you want to activate all your cowboys that are standing up first so that the others stay immune. In our game it made everyone want to play defensively and it took forever. It really seems unthematic that a fallen down cowboy can be right next to an enemy and still be invincible (even to dynamite!).

Also, I'm not sure if I would ever play it with more than 4 people. It can take some time to wait for your turn if teams spends any amount of time discussing which cowboy the current player should activate, if they can make a certain shot, etc.
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Christian Busch

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This game is a beer and pretzels game (motto of the publisher too...). I agree it is fiddly but that is intentional. I think things are made to play fast and loose. Players taking time agonizing over the strategic decisions of turn order or shot placements might need to rethink their expectation for the game.

This isn't to say that the game is devoid of strategic choices, more that the game plays quick enough that expending a lot of effort to try to optimize things won't yield a very satisfying payoff. That kind of play is likely better suited for Catacombs, which offers a deeper level of play. Both games are great and I like both but the only real ambiguity I've found in this game so far is the question in the "is this a hit" thread. The game is light enough though that a quick decision before you start should keep the game going without issue.

Ultimately, if someone was really gung-ho, the game is a sandbox and you can make it a lot more complicated and strategic if you want. There is already a light variant in the back of the scenario book to give each cowboy a power. This could be expanded further for more strategy and gameplay if the users want to go down that route.
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Murr Rockstroh
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Donkler wrote:
I'm not sure I really like the rule where if you hit a cowboy he lays down and is immune to damage. It makes you want to activate all your cowboys that are standing up first so that the others stay immune. In our game it made everyone want to play defensively and it took forever. It really seems unthematic that a fallen down cowboy can be right next to an enemy and still be invincible (even to dynamite!).

Also, I'm not sure if I would ever play it with more than 4 people. It can take some time to wait for your turn if teams spends any amount of time discussing which cowboy the current player should activate, if they can make a certain shot, etc.
Our house rule to prevent this type of gaming you describe - "which cowboy should we activate" - is: You activate them in numerical order. It adds a bit of tactical decision to who you're going to shoot, but keeps these situations from occurring. We've only played it a few times, but that's how we're doing it currently.
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Sight Reader
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Hmm, interesting... keep the thoughts coming. So activation order amongst teams can become an issue? I'm thinking of playing large games in parties.
 
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Christian Busch

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I agree with Murr. If activation order starts to bog things down, then totally enforce a numerical order to it. This game will suffer the same issue that PitchCar has: if you have too many players, they will lose focus waiting for their turn to come around, even if people have a set activation order and play relatively quickly. The ideal number for my group is between 2-4 players
 
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Sight Reader
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space monkey mafia wrote:
I agree with Murr. If activation order starts to bog things down, then totally enforce a numerical order to it. This game will suffer the same issue that PitchCar has: if you have too many players, they will lose focus waiting for their turn to come around, even if people have a set activation order and play relatively quickly. The ideal number for my group is between 2-4 players

Ah. In Pitchcar we easily dodged the problem of downtime (and overcrowding) by having two start zomes:

https://boardgamegeek.com/video/7674/pitchcar/pitch-car-and-...

I don't know if that would be possible in Flick..
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Christian Busch

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sightreader wrote:
space monkey mafia wrote:
I agree with Murr. If activation order starts to bog things down, then totally enforce a numerical order to it. This game will suffer the same issue that PitchCar has: if you have too many players, they will lose focus waiting for their turn to come around, even if people have a set activation order and play relatively quickly. The ideal number for my group is between 2-4 players

Ah. In Pitchcar we easily dodged the problem of downtime (and overcrowding) by having two start zomes:

https://boardgamegeek.com/video/7674/pitchcar/pitch-car-and-...

I don't know if that would be possible in Flick..
Wtf!?! That is brilliant.
 
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Sight Reader
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space monkey mafia wrote:
Wtf!?! That is brilliant.
Lol, thanks. Based on your reaction, I gather this doesn't occur to everyone: I suppose I'd better post this in the variant thread.

There are a couple of tricks to make it work.

1. Place start zones on opposite sides of the track (so the two start groups don't run into each other).

2. Use straight track just after the start zone (to prevent overcrowding) and convoluted track just before (to get a close finish)

3. Synchronize turn order by having the same set of colors on each side ("OK Yellows, it's your turn! All Yellows done? OK Blues, now it's your turn...")


For sloppy, silly fun, you can also try the "Chaos" variant:

1. Turns are not synchronized: each start group tries to move as fast as possible.

2. Players are eliminated (or the race ends) if they get caught by a car from the other start zone.

3. Each start zone must observe (and enforce) proper turn order.


"Chaos" games are pretty unbalanced as one start group inevitably has an advantage over the other. Use that as a handicap for the more skillful players.
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Greg
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This game is as fiddly as people choose to make it. It's meant to be fun and it is for people that like light games and don't get bogged down trying to make it what it isn't.

I've played it twice with 7 people (some of the same and some different in each game) and we all had a blast, neither game took too long and we all had fun watching others take their turns and either mess up a shot or make a great shot. We played a friend's copy of the game on the Monday after GenCon and two of us that played have just gotten our own copies of the game and another guy wants to get it but just missed out on the short time Amazon Prime had 4 of them for $61.

I just got my copy yesterday, punched it out and set it up. When my twin 12 year-old girls saw it, they immediately wanted to play. We played a few rounds before they went to bed and will continue today.

Take that for what it's worth, but 3 people in a game group already owning it and more in the group wanting to buy it, says something about the fun we had.

I'd say that while not fiddly IMO, there may be some ambiguities in the rules here and there, maybe not so much in the main rules, but the rules that are introduced from scenario to scenario. Can either be a translation issue or just missed when editing. But I think things can be cleared up here on BGG or people can just come up with a ruling of their own if they aren't 100% sure.
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