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Subject: Low value wine order cards are useless in 2p games rss

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Hornless Unicorn
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I have a around 15 2p games of viticulture, and I'm starting to think the wine order cards are completely unbalanced.

My main issue is with the 2 VP orders.

Why are the 2 VP cards even in the game? Why would anyone ever complete them: they cost ~4 actions to complete (get the order, harvest, make wine, deliver), the same as almost any other order card, and offer a measly return. The problem here is not the number of actions, is that all those actions are the highly contested ones( especially the make wine, and deliver order)

A 4VP order, offers twice the benefit, for the measly additional cost of having a medium cellar. A medium cellar that you only build once and profit for your next 3-5 orders.

A 2 vp order is not only a dead action, a dead card, but you drawing it, increases the chance of you opponent avoiding one.

Being able to complete a low value orders without an action (like the quests are completed in Lords of Waterdeep), would really make them more valuable, without making them op, otherwise I'm seriously considering leaving them in the box.

The 3VP cards are not great either, but there are a lot more of them, and there is a big change that both you and your opponent will draw a 1-2 of those.

I kindof-understand why the designer added them in the game. In a 3+ player game, they probably aren't so bad because of the (+1 wine making and +1 VP when fulfilling orders action spaces), but a 2p, I just can't possibly justify their existence.


I hope someone can prove me wrong, because otherwise Viticulture is a good 2p, but it seams that the winner is the one that manages to draw the 'biggest' orders.
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YP
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You make some good points, but completely disregard the income wine orders give. Getting an early income going can be very valuable, and is a lot easier with low value orders than medium or high value orders. Therefore I do not completely agree with your valuation of the order cards.
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Juan Crespo
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Don't have the cards in front of me but most of the higher VP cards tend to require the medium and large cellar to be built. Many more actions than those needed for an early 2 VP.

The way i see it, this is another iteration of the "some visitor cards are better than the others" claim. But Viticulture to me is not meant to be "perfectly balanced", in terms of cards.

A big part of the game design relies on the luck of the draw. Drawing wine contracts, or visitors, should be risky. it's part of the game, and some cards are going to be less useful than others at some point. That forces players to adapt and play the best of what they are dealt. Removing those cards will severely undermine the part of the game design, in my opinion.
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Feld Fan
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thesleeper7 wrote:
...A 2 vp order is not only a dead action, a dead card...

This is why you have to play with the Tuscany: Expand the World of Viticulture expansion, which lets you trade your "dead" cards for more useful things like more cards, money, VP, or grapes.
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Peter Hazlewood
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I agree with a lot of the points made above. I think, based on only 3 games so far admittedly (2 of them 2p), that you may not often want to spend the time on fulfilling a 2vp order but with 2 exceptions:

1. Early game to try and jump a lead on your opponent
2. To end the game at the right moment (i.e. when your scoring is ahead of your opponent's)

I don't agree with one of the above posters that higher value orders take lots more actions. Surely part of any decent strategy is to make sure that medium and large cellars are built in good time so as to allow the wines to age.
 
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Eric Hogue
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sneakypete21 wrote:
I don't agree with one of the above posters that higher value orders take lots more actions. Surely part of any decent strategy is to make sure that medium and large cellars are built in good time so as to allow the wines to age.

High-value orders require high-value grapes (for red and white) or multiple grapes (for blush and sparkling). There is not enough time in a well-played game to get low-value grapes into a high-valued red or white. So, whether it is the extra actions of building the buildings that let you plant high-value grapes, or th4e extra harvest to get multiple low-value grapes, you do spend more actions to produce a high-value wine.

I agree that high-value wine orders seem a little more efficient than low-value, but they do take more actions.
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Peter Hazlewood
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EricHogue wrote:
sneakypete21 wrote:
I don't agree with one of the above posters that higher value orders take lots more actions. Surely part of any decent strategy is to make sure that medium and large cellars are built in good time so as to allow the wines to age.

There is not enough time in a well-played game to get low-value grapes into a high-valued red or white.

Well it's impossible to argue at what standard we're playing the game, but so far to get to 25+ points and finish the game we're completing a decent number of orders and it takes time. But what I said is still true in that it is not taking an action for grapes and wine to age. If you've got 2 fields producing 3 or 4 red and white grapes then with a couple of decent turns and taking the "age grapes" space you could be getting high value red/white/blush/sparkling in a relatively short space of time.

3 fields: 1 with red 2, one with red 3 and one with white 3. You harvest. How long before I can create a bottle of 8 sparkling? Not very long! And not very many actions either!
 
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Eric Hogue
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sneakypete21 wrote:
I don't agree with one of the above posters that higher value orders take lots more actions. Surely part of any decent strategy is to make sure that medium and large cellars are built in good time so as to allow the wines to age.

sneakypete21 wrote:
But what I said is still true in that it is not taking an action for grapes and wine to age.

I'm sure you can see where I would disagree with the first statement and agree with the second.
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thespaceinvader -
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sneakypete21 wrote:
EricHogue wrote:
sneakypete21 wrote:
I don't agree with one of the above posters that higher value orders take lots more actions. Surely part of any decent strategy is to make sure that medium and large cellars are built in good time so as to allow the wines to age.

There is not enough time in a well-played game to get low-value grapes into a high-valued red or white.

Well it's impossible to argue at what standard we're playing the game, but so far to get to 25+ points and finish the game we're completing a decent number of orders and it takes time. But what I said is still true in that it is not taking an action for grapes and wine to age. If you've got 2 fields producing 3 or 4 red and white grapes then with a couple of decent turns and taking the "age grapes" space you could be getting high value red/white/blush/sparkling in a relatively short space of time.

3 fields: 1 with red 2, one with red 3 and one with white 3. You harvest. How long before I can create a bottle of 8 sparkling? Not very long! And not very many actions either!
Quite long, because you can't create blush without a medium cellar or sparkling without a medium and a large cellar, which are expensive in lira and actions. ALso, the fields cost you actions to plant, and the harvests cost you actions (speaking of which, those are not efficient fields, if you put the red 3 and the white 3 together you would save an action harvesting).

I've not tried it (not drawn the right vine/order combos), but I'd be interested to see how possible it would be to plant, harvest, crush, sell with the opening four actions for a cheap order and get a bit of income early on which could really mount up and save you on sell/tour actions, and see how that would affect the game. If it saved you even half a worker-action every round (not impossible) it might be worth doing over buying an extra worker for 4 lira.

Also... 'age grapes' isn't a space. It's one or two visitors in the base game, so you have to get quite lucky to be able to artificially age your grapes.
 
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Peter Hazlewood
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thespaceinvader wrote:
sneakypete21 wrote:
EricHogue wrote:
sneakypete21 wrote:
I don't agree with one of the above posters that higher value orders take lots more actions. Surely part of any decent strategy is to make sure that medium and large cellars are built in good time so as to allow the wines to age.

There is not enough time in a well-played game to get low-value grapes into a high-valued red or white.

Well it's impossible to argue at what standard we're playing the game, but so far to get to 25+ points and finish the game we're completing a decent number of orders and it takes time. But what I said is still true in that it is not taking an action for grapes and wine to age. If you've got 2 fields producing 3 or 4 red and white grapes then with a couple of decent turns and taking the "age grapes" space you could be getting high value red/white/blush/sparkling in a relatively short space of time.

3 fields: 1 with red 2, one with red 3 and one with white 3. You harvest. How long before I can create a bottle of 8 sparkling? Not very long! And not very many actions either!

Also... 'age grapes' isn't a space. It's one or two visitors in the base game, so you have to get quite lucky to be able to artificially age your grapes.

Ah, I was playing whatever edition/expansion that the 5th role includes an 'age grape' action when moving to another season.
 
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