James
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I already have and enjoy The Resistance: Avalon, Ultimate Werewolf: Ultimate Edition, and Coup. This wasn't on my radar at all and I was going to let the Vampire Kickstarter pass me by. However, I am seeing glowing reviews from gamers I trust, particularly from Charlie Theel here. What worries me is that, while I see some social deduction and artful lying (yay), I also seem to be seeing a number of instances in which someone could be arguing full out with their role in mind...and it was switched without them having any way of knowing (hmm).

I know it's worth a chuckle, but I would not want to play a game on a regular basis in which all of my talk and strategy was based on a complete uncertainty and it came to nothing when a different role for me was revealed.

Veterans of the game, how much legitimate deduction is in the game versus random surprises? I understand that this is a social deduction game, of course, but all of the games I mention give you solid evidence in which to make educated guesses at least. That's what I want. If one had this, Daybreak and the Vampire editions, is it perhaps a matter of which roles you chose to include or not include?

Thanks for any answers, guys!
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James Drury
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The easiest way to answer this question is to let the game speak for itself when played by a good group of gamers. Take a look at this video, it's the 1st game of 3 played, so if you want to get a really good idea of what goes on you can watch all 3 if you so wish.

https://youtu.be/j-CWXDf0gG4

Just a word of warning, these guys are role players and REALLY get into their characters. I love them, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.
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Christian K
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Depends on the players. With clever players, there will be lots of deduction. With players who play randomly, it will be, well, random.
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Greg Wilson
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Brother Jim wrote:
I also seem to be seeing a number of instances in which someone could be arguing full out with their role in mind...and it was switched without them having any way of knowing


Well, you know which roles are in the game, so you always know that role-switching is a possibility. The question isn't whether it happened, it's who it happened to. You can't just play for the role you had at the start of the game and expect to win, you need to try to work out what you are now and play for that.
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Clyde W
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70-30.
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john thompson
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In my opinion, there is a lot of strategy and deduction to ONUW & Daybreak compared with random surprises as there is always information to work with. To begin the game, there are only a finite number of cards in play, so that already limits the possibilities dramatically (for ex. in a 5-player game, only 8 roles are possible for others to claim). Secondly, you know which card you start with, which gives you evidence/information. Thirdly, if you are the seer, or have some other power, you gain additional evidence/information to verify or falsify other people's claims. Finally, during the day phase, as people claim roles, you should be able to quickly see that some claims are more credible than others (for ex., a robber who claims to rob you and says you are the seer before you claimed the seer role, makes that person very credible. if the person said he robbed you after you claimed to be the seer, then his claim of being the robber is less credible). In time, players should be able to start reconstructing most of what happened during the night phase and whether they have been switched. There may be times when your card is switched and you won't figure it out. When that happens, I give kudos to the winning player(s) for besting me.

Knowing the roles is the key as it will help you 1) unlock information from others to inform your own vote and 2) make credible claims/determine when to release your information to persuade the votes of others. Similar to poker, you will be wrong sometimes, but if you play the game more intelligently than those you're playing with, you will win more often than lose.
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Brother Jim wrote:

I know it's worth a chuckle, but I would not want to play a game on a regular basis in which all of my talk and strategy was based on a complete uncertainty and it came to nothing when a different role for me was revealed.


This will undoubtedly happen from time to time.. and it depends on how many switching roles you put in the game, but that is why you sometimes need to think on your feet and have an exit strategy if someone reveals you are now something else. Or sometimes if things are looking really bad for you, sow confusion and hope for the best.. that's why you make sure to set the timer low!

ONUW is not pure strategy, it is chaotic.. but perhaps utilising that or thinking quick as you realise which side of the 'puzzle' you are now on is a strategy in and of itself.

I also recommend the Table Flip videos linked above. There are 6 more on game grumps if you can stand their player..
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Pater Absurdus
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Several people are involved in a deduction puzzle every game but depending on the roles in the game several may be involved in a random surprise. Choosing roles wisely can help with this but some people will almost certainly be stuck in roles/situations that have that.

I thought that I would hate that but to me it is a totally tolerable ratio. The game is super fun. Particularly when everyone knows the roles and you can start putting interesting combo's together.
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Clyde W
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So 70-30 aside, here's my opinion: The game is a 10. Like Avalon is a 10, but in different ways.

Here's the really cool amazing awesome thing about One Night, in my opinion: you can play a round of it and by the end you've totally figured everything out, you're a social deduction genius, you line up the votes exactly how you want them to ensure your wincon, everyone's on board, then 3 2 1 VOTE and then mass chaos ensues no one is voting how you thought they were, everyone flips their cards and HOLY BALLS YOUR WORLD HAS CHANGED NOTHING IS AS HOW YOU THOUGHT IT WAS OMGMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG WTFWTFWTFWTF JUST HAPPEND HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

That a 10 minute game with very minimal components can create such situations of utter shock and awe is just too special to pass over. I love social deduction, and I love it when I'm tricked, and if I'm going to get tricked in any game, it's most likely to be this one. It's a classic. We'll still be playing it 10 years from now. It's the Real Deal. Get it.
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Pater Absurdus
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Also, noteworthy, I hate Werewolf and coup due to them both feeling to based on bluffing. I used to love resistance/avalon due to the sense that there was more control and deduction. I don't know if I like resistance anymore because I haven't played it in a year. ONUW has totally taken it over. So far I feel no need to pull it out.
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Ken H.
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Brother Jim wrote:
I also seem to be seeing a number of instances in which someone could be arguing full out with their role in mind...and it was switched without them having any way of knowing (hmm).


Role-switching IS the game though. New players might play the way you describe, but you very quickly learn that this is not how you win. If you take out the switchers, there isn't much to talk about during the actual play.

It helps to keep track of player wins, instead of side wins.

Quote:
I know it's worth a chuckle, but I would not want to play a game on a regular basis in which all of my talk and strategy was based on a complete uncertainty and it came to nothing when a different role for me was revealed.


It's not complete uncertainty, just partial. There will be clues. You try to find out what night actions other people took. You look for corroboration with information you know to be true. You watch for people struggling with eye contact, etc.

It's pretty much like normal werewolf, except there is a perspective shift. You add in this extra level where you have to figure out if you are what you think you are. This stops the standard werewolf strategy of villagers just cold-claiming their roles and then trying to narrow the pool of possible wolves. It also means even if you were caught red-handed by the Seer, you haven't lost the game.

It's frequently solvable. Sometimes not. I'd say Clyde's 70-30 numbers sound about right.

Quote:
all of the games I mention give you solid evidence in which to make educated guesses at least. That's what I want.


What is solid evidence? There are plenty of roles where you get to look at something or move something. That's your only evidence. Otherwise you are deducing who is who (including yourself) based on what evidence other people claim to have. You often need to lie about your own evidence even when you are not a wolf, until you have a reasonable guess as to who was switched.

Quote:
If one had this, Daybreak and the Vampire editions, is it perhaps a matter of which roles you chose to include or not include?


Role selection is part of the fun. But, like I said at the top, if you take out all the role-switching powers, you are in for a short dull game.

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You need to let go of the fact that ONUW adds another layer (roleswitching) and embrace it. I had that problem myself when first playing it, and once you accept that it can happen and is part of the game, you play as needed and it becomes a much better game than vanilla werewolf because of it...and no player elimination, and much lesser game time, and fun roles and art everyone gets to see and discuss...yeah.

Its a better game, period.
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dennis bennett
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I think i'd call it "uncertainty" instead of "randomness".
What you're dealing with is other players having information you don't have which will affect their decisions and the way they play, which leads to stuff like bluffing and feeds into the social deduction aspect.

The surprises aren't "random" they're machinated and orchestrated by the other players (once they've gotten into it and know what they're doing).

I've played the game with people who hardly understood (or didn't care for) the "deduction" part and they still had fun (see reports here in the subforum about people introducing young kids to the game , who often don't get the deduction aspect). The game can start feeling a bit random and pointless though if there aren't enough players in the game who really "understand" and "get" the deduction part. Sometimes it takes a more experiences player to demonstrate the possibilities in the game and then they catch on.

(At least 10 copies of this game have been sold after i introduced it to people who knew nothing about it. Some ordered it on amazon while we were still playing, they loved it that much!)
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Clyde W
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Rubric wrote:
What is solid evidence? There are plenty of roles where you get to look at something or move something. That's your only evidence. Otherwise you are deducing who is who (including yourself) based on what evidence other people claim to have. You often need to lie about your own evidence even when you are not a wolf, until you have a reasonable guess as to who was switched.
The roleswitcher guys are all Team Good. Therefore they have an incentive to (ultimately) tell the truth about what they did at night (unless of course there are multiple roleswitcher guys, and then they might be less open with their info). So you can certainly base your decisions on these types of facts. The issue becomes if the roleswitcher swapped YOU for a wolf. That means you yourself must claim a roleswitcher. This often will lure out wolves into claiming, which helps you know where to vote.

All of this can be complicated by the introduction of roles like Minion and Tanner who'll give wolves cover.
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Alan Wallis
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clydeiii wrote:
The roleswitcher guys are all Team Good.

I think you forgot about the Alpha Wolf in Daybreak.
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..and robber. Sure he is good, but it hardly matters what he is. What matter is the card he steals.
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Clyde W
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Sorry, when I said "role-switchers" I meant the specifically the roles of Witch, Troublemaker and Gremlin. Robber and Alpha Wolf are an entirely different type of role in my mind, but yes, they make the game infinitely more interesting.
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James
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I'd like to thank everyone who chimed in here (and Clyde for not stirring the pot). You really gave me a lot of your time and the valuable insight of lots of sessions. I have a better grasp of "where the game is" with some of the differences from the other social deduction games I know. I hope I get the chance to return the favor with another title for each of you down the road some time.



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Clyde W
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#ClydeDoesntStirThePot
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James
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clydeiii wrote:
#ClydeDoesntStirThePot

I just saw it as a tag, had no idea of the context and decided to make trouble!


In fairness, there are a few other users on site who, if they got into it, might just send the site to DEFCON 1. Glad they're not here; this has been a helpful thread.
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Happy that you had that experience have fun with the game.
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